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people who don't like the way other people look in public


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#1
Guest_EmberPhase_*

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Now to start out, this is just my opinion and my own personal wonderings. I would ask that no one take offense to it, I simply do not understand the reason behind my following statement/inquiry. It is something that I have often thought on, long and hard, when I have encountered the following type of people. Maybe someone out there, even ones like the following, could help enlighten me. Enlightenment is my goal.

Ok, here is my wondering. I was at work the other day, I work in a public place, and a lesbian couple came through the door. There was a short one with short dark hair and a tall one with a little longer brown hair. Now, maybe I am just too super femme in my ways of attraction, but these women appalled me physically (reminder, just a personal opinion/attraction). They were very homely looking, no makeup what so ever, and their clothing wasn't flattering their frames in the least. The taller one with the longer hair, her hair was so limp that wet noodles would have had more body and bounce. Now, my wondering is, why do some lesbians feel this is the way to look?
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't wear makeup everyday and I don't dress to the 9's everyday, but if I look in the mirror and saw in myself what I saw in them, I would have tried something. It could have, and must likely would have, been a minimal attempt at polishing my appearance, but I would have attempted it.
I was not attracted to either one of them in the least due to their outward appearance (yes, I said outward, I know they could be beautiful on the inside but I am just wondering about "presentation" right now). Does anyone know why some lesbians tend to follow this path in their personal presentation? It is almost like, and forgive my ignorance on the topic, they "refuse" to attempt to polish their appearance.
I guess my wondering is why some lesbians have this tendency whenit comes to their personal appearance and if it is really a helper or a henderance to their finding someone to be with. I am not really referring to the "butch" look per-say. I have seen several butch-typed women that still seemed like they looked in the mirror that morning to make sure their appearance was one that would please another's eye.
If you think you have any thoughts, comments, explanations, or whatever, please feel free to enlighten me. I have thought on it many times in my life and I have never really seemed to obtain an answer from my own musings.

#2
GaiaChyld

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I've been out in public and seen people that I think could use a little makeover as well (or a big makeover, depending...). But not just lesbians, lots of other people present themselves this way. I guess I just figure whatever makes them comfortable is just fine with me. I am generally not attracted to girls with poor hygeine myself, but obviously someone is, or it wouldn't have been a couple!!
Freedom of religion means ANY religion!

#3
garbage7

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This bugs the crapola out of me too Ember. Me a newly sort of outish lesbian, loses hope that anyone decent looking exists for me. However there are the small few of us who do take pride in the way we look. I have even met one or two. I don't understand it either though. and aren't two butchy chicks just 2 gay guys? If I wanted to date a girl who looked like a guy then I wouldn't have this whole lesbian dilema in the first place. So Ember let us hold up our curling irons and mascara brushes and unite to take pride in at least our looks!

And yes inside does matter, but it needs to work together with the outside.

#4
zami

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Quote

...and aren't two butchy chicks just 2 gay guys? If I wanted to date a girl who looked like a guy then I wouldn't have this whole lesbian dilema in the first place...

Hello garbage7,

Care to explain this a bit futher? I'm rather perplexed.
"If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive" ~ Audre Lorde

#5
garbage7

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Explain what? It means exactly what I said. A lot of lesbians look like 14 year old boys and act like boys as well. If I wanted to be with someone who looked and acted like a boy I wouldn't be a lesbian. I would be trying to date boys and men. The whole purpose of my lesbianicity is that I want to be with a woman, someone who both looks and acts like a woman. I don't mind a little tomboyishness, but I just don't understand the whole butch thing I guess.

#6
zami

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Quote

...but I just don't understand the whole butch thing I guess.

Well, perhaps that is where you should have started. To state that women who are butch are basically "gay men" is pretty offensive to those who do not identify as men, and to an historical and cultural community of women who identify with the label butch. I know that so many of my butch sistahs and foremothers would be soooo upset to hear that you sweepingly generalized a whole community by stating that they act like 14 year old boys.

There are also, many non-butch identified and butch identified lesbians that find butches extremely attractive, subversive and don't believe that they are just 'men.' Well (here comes the academic in me) you might try reading some stuff around this topic, like work by Joan Nestle, Gayle Rubin and J. Halberstam (although Halberstam has some issues).

I have read on the board that you are newly out and newly finding community. I can assure you that dissing the butches in queer communities, stating that they are basically "boys" is certainly not going to get you into a community in a hurry. Especially since the idea that butches are not women or are trying to be men is a way old patriarchal game played by many many many homophobes and those who have internalized that crap. I also believe that misogyny isn't fun, and hating on butches because you believe in tired, old dichotomous understandings of masculinity and femininity is weak.

And just so you know, my queerness and lesbian identity isn't shaped on solely being attracted to "women who look like women' or whatever the hell that means. Yes, desire is part of my politics, but subverting mainstream (read white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalist and imperialist, homophobic) ideas about what makes one a 'woman' is also at the front of my game.
"If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive" ~ Audre Lorde

#7
Nailbunny

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Quote

Now, my wondering is, why do some lesbians feel this is the way to look?

So...... your implying that lesbians must dress or look a diffrent way then straight women? The word lesbian is not all defining, being a lesbian is just one aspect of a whole life. There could be many possibilities as to why those two women looked the way they did that day. But because they did look "homely" doesnt mean that they are worth any less than you are. Besides, who the fuck cares what they were wearing or how there hair looked?

I had to learn the hard way that looks are worth there weight in gold, which basically means there not worth shit when you really get down to it. Skin deep is exactly that... skin deep. Ive been with some really attractive chicks and they all turned out to be insane and really ugly on the inside.
So dont be so quick to judge becuase you just might write someone off based on thier looks, that could have made you really really happy had you taken the time to get to know whats on the inside. That would really be a shame. Inner beauty has a way of turning into outer beauty.
The dumber people think you are, the more suprised they'll be when you kill them....

#8
Guest_EmberPhase_*

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Quote

Quote

Now, my wondering is, why do some lesbians feel this is the way to look?

So...... your implying that lesbians must dress or look a diffrent way then straight women? The word lesbian is not all defining, being a lesbian is just one aspect of a whole life. There could be many possibilities as to why those two women looked the way they did that day. But because they did look "homely" doesnt mean that they are worth any less than you are. Besides, who the fuck cares what they were wearing or how there hair looked?

I had to learn the hard way that looks are worth there weight in gold, which basically means there not worth shit when you really get down to it. Skin deep is exactly that... skin deep. Ive been with some really attractive chicks and they all turned out to be insane and really ugly on the inside.
So dont be so quick to judge becuase you just might write someone off based on thier looks, that could have made you really really happy had you taken the time to get to know whats on the inside. That would really be a shame. Inner beauty has a way of turning into outer beauty.


"Besides, who the fuck cares what they were wearing or how there hair looked? "

Well, basically, at that time I cared. As a WOMAN myself, I felt that the neglect of their own appear and presence while out in public was slightly offensive and it caught me off guard. That was my point (maybe it is just a southern thing, who knows? We southern women tend to like to see beauty in a flower).

Oh, other stuff that I didn't mention is how they snapped and fought with one another like two cats tired of each other's company but too scared and dependent to let the other go. There! Happy now that I have "elaborated" on their INNER beauty? Such lovely creatures they were.

Anyhow, the point was about LOOKS, not their personality. Did anyone read my entry? Or maybe I should ask can anyone (other than Garbage) read?

....and the fun begins.

#9
Guest_EmberPhase_*

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Explain what? It means exactly what I said. A lot of lesbians look like 14 year old boys and act like boys as well. If I wanted to be with someone who looked and acted like a boy I wouldn't be a lesbian. I would be trying to date boys and men. The whole purpose of my lesbianicity is that I want to be with a woman, someone who both looks and acts like a woman. I don't mind a little tomboyishness, but I just don't understand the whole butch thing I guess.

To summarize....I guess what Garbage and I are trying to understand it why some women, who happen to be lesbians, feel that they have to turn in their makeup and 'personal appearance' card to obtain and carry the "I like women" card. Well, at least that is what I wonder (hint, hint, the point of my org'l entry).

It almost seems like they are making the statement to other females, that you aren't truly a lesbian if you wear eyeshadow and carry a purse. But, that is just what I take away or read into their acts and appearances. Who knows? I am human and I have been wrong before, it is a good thing to know that I can admit it :D :twisted:

#10
zami

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Quote

To summarize....I guess what Garbage and I are trying to understand it why some women, who happen to be lesbians, feel that they have to turn in their makeup and 'personal appearance' card to obtain and carry the "I like women" card. Well, at least that is what I wonder (hint, hint, the point of my org'l entry).

I don't understand how you are associating a narrow version of 'femininity' (i.e. makeup, etc.) with'good hygiene'. I also don't understand why you feel there must be some form of essentialized womanhood that is understandable and identifiable i.e., if you wear makeup, you are a 'real' woman, and if you don't, are a bit too tomboyish (what, play sports? Don't wear makeup?) then you are somehow not a 'real' woman and are 'acting like a boy'. And I also don't see why this is of so much concern. Suddenly, you gotta wear makeup and carry a purse, or else you give a bad name to the lesbian community?!??! Wow, I guess I've lost my 'lesbian' card.

Quote

It almost seems like they are making the statement to other females, that you aren't truly a lesbian if you wear eyeshadow and carry a purse. But, that is just what I take away or read into their acts and appearances. Who knows? I am human and I have been wrong before, it is a good thing to know that I can admit it :D :twisted:

Well, I disagree. Femme dykes exist in multitudes in the lesbian community (ever heard of lipstick lesbians?) Various gender expressions such as Femme queer identity is what makes the community sooo diverse. I guess i'm at a loss trying to figure out what community you hang in. Queer femme identity is again, sooo subversive - folks think that if you are femme you MUST be straight (especially since our patriarchal society believes that women only 'dress up' to please men) and femme folks fuck up those notions. Not to mention that femme isn't something only women can be.

I really really believe that it is in our best interest NOT to buy into those really really narrow and rigid understandings of womanhood especially for those of us who are interested in 'queering' desire and sexual identities. Or maybe folks just wanna buy into the status quo...???
"If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive" ~ Audre Lorde





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