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people who don't like the way other people look in public


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#11
zami

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Ok. I just re-read your first post.. and again, I really don't know what you want folks to say.

I guess the answer to your question is that some folks (regardless of their sexuality) are just nasty and have horrible hygiene.

The end.
"If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive" ~ Audre Lorde

#12
Guest_EmberPhase_*

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Ok. I just re-read your first post.. and again, I really don't know what you want folks to say.

I guess the answer to your question is that some folks (regardless of their sexuality) are just nasty and have horrible hygiene.

The end.

Ok, once again. NOT talking about hygiene in the general sense and someone needs to seek other ways to let whatever anger from their life off in another venue b/c I will not accept it. I am NOT saying that you HAVE to wear makeup, actually I was talking from the OTHER perspective of why they tend not to and would ignore women who do. JEEZ, it is called READING. This is the problem with boards, you ask a simple question that you truly don't understand or would like to know more about, and the cliques, or rogues looking for a cause to standup for, jump all over you.

Honey, I don't know who's entry your read, but it appearently wasn't mine. You need to seek some help about those angerment issues. Oh, and if you don't have to wear makeup to be a woman (which I never said you did), you don't have to be angry to be a lesbian either.

PS. In fact, I found your very first reply most informative, clear, and not hateful of all. I truly enjoyed your very first reply, but now these replies just seem (to me) to be a soapbox with a potential to fall.

PPS. Sorry I quoted the wrong entry by you, I didn't mean to get the last one, I meant to quote the first one in line.

#13
zami

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Ok, once again. NOT talking about hygiene in the general sense and someone needs to seek other ways to let whatever anger from their life off in another venue b/c I will not accept it. I am NOT saying that you HAVE to wear makeup, actually I was talking from the OTHER perspective of why they tend not to and would ignore women who do. JEEZ, it is called READING.

Ooo the "you are angry" response. Please. If you can't deal with confrontation, don't post questions that folks don't understand because they are UNCLEAR. The only person who you believed to have understood your question added to it by stating that all butches are basically men. And you backed her up by quoting her and 'summarizing' her. So please, don't pull the "you can't read" response after two folks tried to respond to what they thought you were trying to say.

Who are "they"? Women who don't wear makeup? I don't even believe that this is a generalizeable situation (i.e. all women who don't wear makeup believe that all women who do are not 'real' lesbians). I guess I don't understand your question, because as I see it, dykes who do and don't wear makeup are all very much a part of the lesbian community. If the question was perhaps about femme invisibility or invalidation, maybe you could have started up a good conversation. But again, what you did say was that lesbians who don't wash their hair or something were gross, and then you generalized saying that many of this 'ilk' tend to ignore the ones who do wash their hair. Maybe it was because those particular women are stupid?

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This is the problem with boards, you ask a simple question that you truly don't understand or would like to know more about, and the cliques, or rogues looking for a cause to standup for, jump all over you.

Hahahaha..cliques and rogues and a 'cause'. Yah, my cause is ANTI-OPPRESSION. I'm sorry that you think it isn't worthy to deal with people who so blatantly call women "men" because they don't fit a normative gender stereotype. Remeber, this IS a messageboard. You think you can read tone, but you really really can't sometimes.

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Honey, I don't know who's entry your read, but it appearently wasn't mine. You need to seek some help about those angerment issues. Oh, and if you don't have to wear makeup to be a woman (which I never said you did), you don't have to be angry to be a lesbian either.

I'm sorry. Did you just pull the anger thing again? How laughable. I'm just really tired of generalizations about women, especially dykes, seeing as society is already finding ways to marginalize us. Like it is fun to be marginalized by members of our own community. But of course, I shouldn't be surprised. I'm a black gender queer dyke who knows what marginalization is all about...

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I guess what Garbage and I are trying to understand it why some women, who happen to be lesbians, feel that they have to turn in their makeup and 'personal appearance' card to obtain and carry the "I like women" card

Who cares if they turn in their makeup card? What does personal appearance have to do with sexuality? Why does it matter? Do you feel it invalidates your sexual identity? That would be a place to start..perhaps asking, why should it (invalidate your sexuality?)

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PS. In fact, I found your very first reply most informative, clear, and not hateful of all. I truly enjoyed your very first reply, but now these replies just seem (to me) to be a soapbox with a potential to fall.

?? That makes no sense. My "soapbox" is to figure out what you both were saying. Again, you quoted, summarized and backed up garbage7 when she stated that all butches are basically men. I didn't see you questioning her rationale, I saw you BACKING HER UP, and in essence, agreeing with her. You can understand, then, why I "misunderstood" and thought that you also believed that all butches were men and are therefore not really women. My first response, as my second response, as this last one is all to wonder what point you are trying to make. What? That lesbians should up their appearance (generally)? That all lesbians have to get along? That makeup is the golden measurement of friendliness, of dykeliness?

I also find it interesting that I'm the hateful one, but garbage7 isn't. Interesting.

Femme invisibility is definitely something we CAN discuss, just like butch marginality as well as all those folks who don't ascribe to those labels. What makes one a lesbian? How about passing privilege? How femmes can often go without being outed, whereas for some women, 'lesbian' is read off their body? Now that brings up the idea of femme invisibility in queer communities, because many do believe that they aren't "really" queer.

Oh forget it. I'll just post this as a separate topic, cuz I'm not even sure this was what you wanted to talk about in the first place.
"If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive" ~ Audre Lorde

#14
Guest_EmberPhase_*

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Ok, once again. NOT talking about hygiene in the general sense and someone needs to seek other ways to let whatever anger from their life off in another venue b/c I will not accept it. I am NOT saying that you HAVE to wear makeup, actually I was talking from the OTHER perspective of why they tend not to and would ignore women who do. JEEZ, it is called READING.

Ooo the "you are angry" response. Please. If you can't deal with confrontation, don't post questions that folks don't understand because they are UNCLEAR. The only person who you believed to have understood your question added to it by stating that all butches are basically men. And you backed her up by quoting her and 'summarizing' her. So please, don't pull the "you can't read" response after two folks tried to respond to what they thought you were trying to say.

Who are "they"? Women who don't wear makeup? I don't even believe that this is a generalizeable situation (i.e. all women who don't wear makeup believe that all women who do are not 'real' lesbians). I guess I don't understand your question, because as I see it, dykes who do and don't wear makeup are all very much a part of the lesbian community. If the question was perhaps about femme invisibility or invalidation, maybe you could have started up a good conversation. But again, what you did say was that lesbians who don't wash their hair or something were gross, and then you generalized saying that many of this 'ilk' tend to ignore the ones who do wash their hair. Maybe it was because those particular women are stupid?

Quote

This is the problem with boards, you ask a simple question that you truly don't understand or would like to know more about, and the cliques, or rogues looking for a cause to standup for, jump all over you.

Hahahaha..cliques and rogues and a 'cause'. Yah, my cause is ANTI-OPPRESSION. I'm sorry that you think it isn't worthy to deal with people who so blatantly call women "men" because they don't fit a normative gender stereotype. Remeber, this IS a messageboard. You think you can read tone, but you really really can't sometimes.

Quote

Honey, I don't know who's entry your read, but it appearently wasn't mine. You need to seek some help about those angerment issues. Oh, and if you don't have to wear makeup to be a woman (which I never said you did), you don't have to be angry to be a lesbian either.

I'm sorry. Did you just pull the anger thing again? How laughable. I'm just really tired of generalizations about women, especially dykes, seeing as society is already finding ways to marginalize us. Like it is fun to be marginalized by members of our own community. But of course, I shouldn't be surprised. I'm a black gender queer dyke who knows what marginalization is all about...

Quote

I guess what Garbage and I are trying to understand it why some women, who happen to be lesbians, feel that they have to turn in their makeup and 'personal appearance' card to obtain and carry the "I like women" card

Who cares if they turn in their makeup card? What does personal appearance have to do with sexuality? Why does it matter? Do you feel it invalidates your sexual identity? That would be a place to start..perhaps asking, why should it (invalidate your sexuality?)

Quote

PS. In fact, I found your very first reply most informative, clear, and not hateful of all. I truly enjoyed your very first reply, but now these replies just seem (to me) to be a soapbox with a potential to fall.

?? That makes no sense. My "soapbox" is to figure out what you both were saying. Again, you quoted, summarized and backed up garbage7 when she stated that all butches are basically men. I didn't see you questioning her rationale, I saw you BACKING HER UP, and in essence, agreeing with her. You can understand, then, why I "misunderstood" and thought that you also believed that all butches were men and are therefore not really women. My first response, as my second response, as this last one is all to wonder what point you are trying to make. What? That lesbians should up their appearance (generally)? That all lesbians have to get along? That makeup is the golden measurement of friendliness, of dykeliness?

I also find it interesting that I'm the hateful one, but garbage7 isn't. Interesting.

Femme invisibility is definitely something we CAN discuss, just like butch marginality as well as all those folks who don't ascribe to those labels. What makes one a lesbian? How about passing privilege? How femmes can often go without being outed, whereas for some women, 'lesbian' is read off their body? Now that brings up the idea of femme invisibility in queer communities, because many do believe that they aren't "really" queer.

Oh forget it. I'll just post this as a separate topic, cuz I'm not even sure this was what you wanted to talk about in the first place.


If you loved the "you are angry" response, you'll drool over this one....Take some Midol and get laid :twisted:

Zami writes: " I'm a black gender queer dyke who knows what marginalization is all about..."

Pulling out the race card so soon? But we have only begun to discuss our topic. Shocker!

That is right, I am "the man" (in every sense of the word I guess becuase my skin happens to be white), trying to keep you butch-typed women down. I totally stated that in my first entry (or in any entry I have ever posted in my life). I completely, fully, plainly stated that all butch-typed women must be driven from our nation. I am a total racist, sexist, biased, (and whatever else) bigot that is out for anyone who doesn't look and act exactly like me. To hell with anyone who doesn't look exactly like me!

Now that we have all enjoyed our play in the world of fantasy in Zami's mind, one to more important points...


First off, DON'T you EVER tell me whom I do and do not support. Because I can READ between LONG LINES doesn't mean I call all butches men. If you had read my initial entry carefully (as I had asked you kindly to do), you would have seen that I addressed butch women and their appearances, or attempts of keeping their appearances, in a VERY respectful way. I never said ANYTHING degrading about butch women. You are short sighted, among other things, to even generalize that type of judgement on me. Funny, you are the one claiming I generalized....oh, how the pots loves to call that kettle black.

Secondly, since I don't want to make my posts like a 500 page thesis, yes I will write short-hand and put in "they", "them", "we", or whatever gets my SIMPLE point across. If you are looking for extreme detail to where I identify each individual that I talk about by DNA coding, you are looking in the wrong place. I don't have time for that.

Thirdly, you read alot into what I wrote, or didn't write. You are the type of individual that likes to throw your weight around and be noticed. Have another cookie, people read your long winded post. Now, try being nice. I actually thought that my initial post was as gentle and as respectful as I could write while getting my point across that I was shocked by certain behaviors. I try to be mindful of my words so that they do not purposefully hurt or harm others. You, on the other hand, may have an issue with that. I just want to say that being a butch doesn't mean being a bullie.

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#15
Guest_EmberPhase_*

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Someone's been called a bitch too many times in life and now we are all in for it LOL. Fear her now.

#16
zami

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If you loved the "you are angry" response, you'll drool over this one....Take some Midol and get laid :twisted:


You know you've got a very solid argument when you have to resort to name calling.

And I'd really appreciate if you didn't use really fucked up sexist and homophobic slurs to talk about me.

And oh, the generalizaitons about butches are always really nice. Great lesbian friendly community!
"If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive" ~ Audre Lorde

#17
Guest_EmberPhase_*

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If you loved the "you are angry" response, you'll drool over this one....Take some Midol and get laid :twisted:


You know you've got a very solid argument when you have to resort to name calling.

And I'd really appreciate if you didn't use really fucked up sexist and homophobic slurs to talk about me.

And oh, the generalizaitons about butches are always really nice. Great lesbian friendly community!

Right again. Man, you are so consistantly right, I WAS the one assuming and calling names from the get-go. Nice to know I have you to point out "my" mistakes. Read over your own passes before you critique others.

TO ALL OTHERS...can someone PLEASE tell me what generalizations I was making towards butch women at any point in my entries? Please! Seriously, I NEVER said A THING about butch women other than I when I stated that I WASN'T talking about their kind in my first entry. Zami needs to let whatever that is clouding her mind time to disperse and then she needs to read my statement again.

PS. If you really hate homophobic slurs, you really shouldn't have used the word "dyke" in describing yourself, whether for point or for pain. Personally I found your entry with that word use offensive and I am sure I am not the only one. I, personally, never use that word and I don't like it when women either use it to describe themselves or each other. I dislike it even more when someone assumes that I think or use it towards them. I may call you what you are or present yourself to be; mean, disrespectful, bitchy, hateful, or other such names but I will NEVER use 'that' word towards you or anyone else...it is like using the 'N' word. This is a forum for the female gay community, I feel that such homo slurs are uncalled for.

#18
garbage7

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I was the one talking about butchy women and the fact that SOME lesbians feel the need to dress down or look like men. I am sorry that you Zami are so defensive of this, clearly there must be a reason for it. I am sorry that I caused all this disention between you and EmberPhase. I really just was making a point out of MY observations and trying to be a bit sarcastic while at it. I wasn't trying to get your "boxers" all in a twist, so chill out. Props also on the big words, they really scare the shit out of me....

And to say that I am new at this, well that's very observant of you. However, I have known I was a lesbian since I was 5. So the only NEW part of this is the fact that I joined this board and began vocally admitting it when asked.

Gosh will I really be excommunicated from the kingdom of Lesbianism? I didn't realize there were rules and regulations. Please let me know where I can get the holy handbook of all things lesbian so I can find my redemption once again and ask only the RIGHT questions.

So that being said can't we all just get along?

#19
Filly

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Well I guess I am going to piss some people off, but I agree with Ember and Garbage. I find that women who look like the traditional stereotypical attractive woman are what I like. I completely don't understand why women would want to look like those did. I mean, have whatever body you want, but do try to look somewhat pleasant.

Now, I am not saying 'All lesbians should be this way.' I am saying this is what I understand in my apparently feeble little mind. I like girls. If a chick looks like a boy, I'm not interested. It is not intentional, it is simply my instinctual preference. If you love mint ice cream you love mint ice cream. You can't just change things like that. Anyway, I am straying from the point.

I can barely remember the original point of this thread, but I think what we are trying to say is at least care about your looks. It isn't a butch vs. femme thing. Everyone should brush their hair. Everyone should wear clothes that fit them. It shows that you respect yourself. I don't care if you are ugly, or fat, or look masculine. I'm just saying you need to take care of yourself.

Zami, you are offended so easily! We don't understand what other people think, and you don't understand what we think. Don't get all up and righteous about it, be nice and explain. This is supposed to be a place to discuss things nicely.

Well, I am headed to the bar where people of all categories and 'labels' throw down their differences and have fun together.

Filly
Life is only what you make of it.
- Gabrielle

#20
Fat Ephiny

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Interesting "conversation". . . Here's my two cents - 'cause, ya know it's like a forum and that's the point! :)

I am reading Ember's original comment as purposefully instigative. (Is that a word, instigative?) There's certainly a prejudice towards butch women just as there is one towards femme women and it's not just one type making the assumptions about the other. She posed a question that wasn't PC, but it started a lively thread.

Zami makes excellent and thoughtful comments about the continuum of gender and took Ember's initial query to an intellectual level. (Zami - did you continue this thead somewhere else as mentioned? I didn't find it yet.)

It seems like there may be two discussions going on here: one wanting to get a good rant on, and one wanting to educate on a level that isn't being appreciated by the audience.

The short of it is, to me (note the "I" statements) that there are preferences and preferences. We all have them to one degree or another (yeah, Filly, kinda like mint ice cream). What's not cool - and it's just my opinion as I hold free speech in high regard - is pissing on someone else's like of mint ice cream or thinking that you are more correcter for liking it, or not liking it, or thinking that it should have more or less mint in it. You've got a place to say it, but don't get surprised if people take issue with it.

- A. Dyke. (BTW I think it's a totally different thing when we call ourselves dyke than when some redneck yells it at us. Like the use of queer or bitch or liberal. Be it. Own it. Tell it.)





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