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people who don't like the way other people look in public


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#31
Troublemaker

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Hi Nicole, I finally posted the reply to your original question in the Transgender/Transsexual forum. I need to learn to be more concise! *laugh* let me know what you think.

troublemaker

#32
Venus

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firstly, i hafta say i've just become a HUGE fan of Zami and Troublemaker's *mad applause*

...and now for a NEW p.o.v...

i, personally, identify as a femme...bratty femme sub, to be exact, but that's for a different forum *wink* ... anyway, i see the same ol' opinion given over and over again about Butch women...'why do they wanna be men' and the same ol' shabby question of 'why would a woman want another woman who looks like a man' ...welp, here's MY answers, actually, more like MY definitions...

a Butch ... a bio-female who has a masculine sense about her (ie. soft butch, butch, stone butch, ftm, etc.) ...attributes to a Butch are strength (mentally AND physically), security, SEXYness, stature, solidarity, compassionate, sensitive and most of all...TRUE, to themselves and what they believe (if not, do you think they would BE proud of being Butch?)

a Femme ... a female (of ANY previous gender), who's pretenses of themselves are feminine (and no that dont always mean skirts n makeup)...

i prefer a Butch to any other type of woman out there...the feeling of one's strong arms wrapped around me at night, the smell of their skin next to mine, the feeling of their thighs inbetween mine fillin me with themselves...ah!!!!!!! it's almost time fer a cold shower *LOL*

may i suggest a book called 'stone butch blues' to anyone interested in the Butch/Femme dynamic... :idea: :D

oh, and btw...you'd think that in the lesbian community their would be much more tolerance and respect than anywhere else in the world, but i guess ignorance just infiltrates all our armies...dammit! :evil:

*{Instant Karma Button}*

#33
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firstly, i hafta say i've just become a HUGE fan of Zami and Troublemaker's *mad applause*

...and now for a NEW p.o.v...

i, personally, identify as a femme...bratty femme sub, to be exact, but that's for a different forum *wink* ... anyway, i see the same ol' opinion given over and over again about Butch women...'why do they wanna be men' and the same ol' shabby question of 'why would a woman want another woman who looks like a man' ...welp, here's MY answers, actually, more like MY definitions...

a Butch ... a bio-female who has a masculine sense about her (ie. soft butch, butch, stone butch, ftm, etc.) ...attributes to a Butch are strength (mentally AND physically), security, SEXYness, stature, solidarity, compassionate, sensitive and most of all...TRUE, to themselves and what they believe (if not, do you think they would BE proud of being Butch?)

a Femme ... a female (of ANY previous gender), who's pretenses of themselves are feminine (and no that dont always mean skirts n makeup)...

i prefer a Butch to any other type of woman out there...the feeling of one's strong arms wrapped around me at night, the smell of their skin next to mine, the feeling of their thighs inbetween mine fillin me with themselves...ah!!!!!!! it's almost time fer a cold shower *LOL*

may i suggest a book called 'stone butch blues' to anyone interested in the Butch/Femme dynamic... :idea: :D

oh, and btw...you'd think that in the lesbian community their would be much more tolerance and respect than anywhere else in the world, but i guess ignorance just infiltrates all our armies...dammit! :evil:

Exactly when did this go butch again? Well, to put it more correctly, when did it EVER go butch for me? Just a simple question about any female/lesbian (identication with a certain group with in lesbiandom optional) :D

Sorry, didn't talk about butch (and, on a very PERSONAL note, I don't ever care to). I am a femme attracted to other femmes, so butch isn't even an issue with me. Which means I wouldn't bring it up in conversation. I have no knowledge on that topic, nor anything to add to the topic.

The topic or concept of Butch, to me, is like the amazing wonders (like the biggest ball of yarn, or some other amazing thing), it may exist but I have no interest in it. :wink: So, you will not see me giving it enough attention to even knock it. Live Butch, live proud, live on (I don't care).

**Wandering off on a tangent for a moment**...Anyone get how tired I am of telling people that this topic isn't about butch? My question is, when did everything go or turn into the topic of butch? :?:

Hehehehe, it is like those darn Pokemon, anyone ever see that stuff? The only part I know about it is that the animal, apparently, can only say its name. No matter the purpose or exclamation, it can only say its name. I am starting to feel that butch is being taken down that same road; everything leads back to butch.

Pokemon styled vocab:

B-utch = Hello
Butch = My name is...
Bu-tch = You are my friend
Bu-tchA = Holy crap, did you just see that?

Hehehe, sorry. I just seemed like a giggle moment to me. :lol:

Welcome to the boards Venus, I hope you find what you are looking for! :wink: By the way B-utch and Bu-tch! :D

Seriously, though, welcome to the boards. I have seen a lot of diversity and dynamic here so far. I think you'll enjoy your stay here and find some people whom you can relate to and build companionships with.

I hear what you are saying about the differences between the two. Actually there may have been a point in my life where I would have identified with the butch side more than the femme. I grew up with guys, only guys, and so I had to LEARN how to be more like the "classic" female (as a majority of society would see it). I hated dresses and would have rather chased the boys up a tree just to beat the crap out of them instead of playing tea party in an Easter dress. Those days are gone and as people tend to do, I have changed.

***Important note here for those who like that soapbox***: In NO way am I saying that butch is a phase, a growth pain, or any other temporary psychological process. I am just saying that if you asked me then and you asked me now, I would have given you a different answer to what I felt I was like.

I hope that you have a good time here with us, we look forward to hearing more from you. Good luck to you! :wink: :D

#34
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***Important note here for those who like that soapbox***: In NO way am I saying that butch is a phase, a growth pain, or any other temporary psychological process. I am just saying that if you asked me then and you asked me now, I would have given you a different answer to what I felt I was like.

How sad is it when you actually have to put in foot notes to your casual postings? But, then again, this is a forum full of women :wink: We know how we can be. :D :wink:

#35
Troublemaker

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Quote

Exactly when did this go butch again? Well, to put it more correctly, when did it EVER go butch for me?

Well, probably when you posted it in the Butch/Femme forum...


Quote

Sorry, didn't talk about butch (and, on a very PERSONAL note, I don't ever care to).

I wrote a bit about how this misunderstanding seems to keep happening, as well as a bunch of other stuff responding to the original spirit of your question... it kind of got burried in the middle of page 2, so I'm wondering if you saw it. I'd be interesting in your thoughts!

take care,
Troublemaker

#36
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Quote

Exactly when did this go butch again? Well, to put it more correctly, when did it EVER go butch for me?

Well, probably when you posted it in the Butch/Femme forum...


Quote

Sorry, didn't talk about butch (and, on a very PERSONAL note, I don't ever care to).

I wrote a bit about how this misunderstanding seems to keep happening, as well as a bunch of other stuff responding to the original spirit of your question... it kind of got burried in the middle of page 2, so I'm wondering if you saw it. I'd be interesting in your thoughts!

take care,
Troublemaker

Yeap, read it. I have often heard the 'I don't care what I look like' statement but it is often coming out of the mouths of children who prefer to be outside playing, rather than adults who have been taught better over time. It is all a matter of upbringing. Like I said about 3 times now, it is probably my upbringing that leads me not to go outside without myself put together (even on the minimal level). I work in a corporate office, I brush my hair. It is true, you have to dress for success (unfortunately, that is how our society works...unless you are some type of artist lol).

As for quick and cheap. Brushing hair takes like, what?, 5 seconds. And as for the cost of appearance....>wicked grin< obviously you have never met super shoppers like myself. I never pay full price for any of my clothing. It is call markdowns and clearance racks. You don't have to be rich to look good. I work too hard for my money to be wasted away, just like you. But, I do like to have clothes that at least flatter my frame.

Now, that statement doesn't mean tight, fitted, or any of that....and if you believe that statement does, obviously you have never watched a makeover show (especially when they teach the larger missy sizes to dress to flatter their frames). It is all about shape, color, texture and maybe a little style (IF that is your thing). It is knowledge of your frame, NOT your weight or what you 'want' to look like (not everyone is a model's frame...heck, I am not!) but it is all about flattering what you've got.

To me, it is more of personal pride. I think I look good in a jogging outfit as much as I do my work suits. But I don't wear a jogging outfit 3 times my size, or one that is faded beyond belief, or anything like that. Wickedly I say, if the clothes aren't doing a thing for you (as in your appearance), then you might as well not wear them at all; as in you would probably look better without them. Hehehehe...sorry had to be a little wicked.

I have often heard, for lack of a better term, natural women (women who don't wear makeup and down others who do) ask why would women care about their colors, their paints, their frames. Using those 'artistic' words in a metaphor to where they might understand, I say the Mona Lisa would be nothing but a drawing without her paints.

She, as a picture of a woman, is humble and conservative, but yet there is still so much going on, so much there! She is revered all the world over and it isn't because she is just in black and white as a simple drawing would be. She has some life breathed into her (her colors, her brush strokes, her textures and techniques). Just a simple touch of care and attention to her "appearance" has left people breathless and in awe for ages.

I personally care to be more than just a drawing. Hence, why I (as you asked why I care) use my colors, my textures, my techniques. Beyond the beauty of that statement and taking it down to a gritty level.... I am creative, artistic, passionate. If I could not express myself with my own canvas, life would be just too boring, plain, and dull for me...AND that is WHY I care :wink:

#37
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Well, probably when you posted it in the Butch/Femme forum...

Wicked grin again...."why's it gotta be Butch?" :D Why can't be femme? LoL :wink:

#38
Teoria

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I am almost afraid to enter this conversation. This has turned into a very heated dispute b/t two women (one passionate about defending the community and the other seeking better understanding about the community through closed eyes). Now b/f anyone jumps to defend her position, I want to make it clear (since you two have covered that fact that you can both read and argue) that I meant no offense. This is just my way of getting to the point. I believe your initial question was why do some women in the lesbian community take little pride in their physical appearance and do they expect the same from all lesbians. First, I do not believe that most care what you look like and they may not care what they look like. Secondly, I am not certain as to what you meant by repulsion. Were you actually physically repulsed? If so that is sad (in the literal sense) b/c you so place such importance on something so superficial. Or were you being colorful with your words and simply stating that you were not attracted to these type of women? Women, gay and straight, dress and carry themselves differently. This does not make them any less of a women. It simply makes them physically different from you and me. And maybe they are more in touch with a spiritual side and care not for materialistim. Maybe they are happy and comfortable with their own identities and thay do not feel the need try to impress us. Maybe they are not trying to attract us (meaning femmes). I have never understood the butch thing and more than I do the femme thing, but I guess I can relate a little more with the femme side of things. This doesn't mean that b/c I am attracted to women who are on the softer side that someone else is not entitled to live their lives as they see fit. Let them have their beliefs and mannerisms as long as they do not force tem upon me, I do not care. Actually, I think it is a good thing. Diversity is what makes the world go around and this is especially true in our community. Just b/c you do not understand something, doesn't make it wrong. It just makes it beyond your understanding or current body of knowledge. If we judge people based on how they look, the world would be even more empty and shallow than it is already. Let us not subject our community to gender based Nazism.
"She walks in beauty like the night of cloudless climes and starry skies and all that's best of dark and bright meet in her aspect and her eyes" -Lord Byron

#39
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I am almost afraid to enter this conversation. This has turned into a very heated dispute b/t two women (one passionate about defending the community and the other seeking better understanding about the community through closed eyes). Now b/f anyone jumps to defend her position, I want to make it clear (since you two have covered that fact that you can both read and argue) that I meant no offense. This is just my way of getting to the point. I believe your initial question was why do some women in the lesbian community take little pride in their physical appearance and do they expect the same from all lesbians. First, I do not believe that most care what you look like and they may not care what they look like. Secondly, I am not certain as to what you meant by repulsion. Were you actually physically repulsed? If so that is sad (in the literal sense) b/c you so place such importance on something so superficial. Or were you being colorful with your words and simply stating that you were not attracted to these type of women? Women, gay and straight, dress and carry themselves differently. This does not make them any less of a women. It simply makes them physically different from you and me. And maybe they are more in touch with a spiritual side and care not for materialistim. Maybe they are happy and comfortable with their own identities and thay do not feel the need try to impress us. Maybe they are not trying to attract us (meaning femmes). I have never understood the butch thing and more than I do the femme thing, but I guess I can relate a little more with the femme side of things. This doesn't mean that b/c I am attracted to women who are on the softer side that someone else is not entitled to live their lives as they see fit. Let them have their beliefs and mannerisms as long as they do not force tem upon me, I do not care. Actually, I think it is a good thing. Diversity is what makes the world go around and this is especially true in our community. Just b/c you do not understand something, doesn't make it wrong. It just makes it beyond your understanding or current body of knowledge. If we judge people based on how they look, the world would be even more empty and shallow than it is already. Let us not subject our community to gender based Nazism.

Sorry, but I simply refuse to discuss this matter any longer. People read what they want to read and ignore all else.

It isn't about materialism or anything else running through your pretty little mind. After all, a comb can be bought for as little as twenty five cents and it takes just 10 seconds at most to use it (So, there goes your money and time angle).

If you, and all the others who supported that type of point, truly believe that we should accept all forms of appearance in public, then I guess I don't understand why office buildings and all other public domains still require a dress code. Afterall, by your point you are making you shouldn't mind someone handling your fries and burger with nappy hair and that just rolled out of bed look or someone closing the deal on your new home to be dressed as a rag doll. One could almost hear the word hypocrite being uttered all through out this conversation.

Call it whatever you wish for your postings purposes. Call it materialism, professionalism, nazism, or just being grown enough to know how to dress yourself; but this is the way it is. And it didn't get there on its own (i.e. you help it along everyday).

Last note, I think all of you are taking outward appearances in the wrong way. You are somehow under the belief that they 'cover up' the person or somehow are another entity all their own from their wearer, but you couldn't be more wrong. You aren't what you wear, you wear what you are. The outside isn't meant to make you, it is meant to help others understand who you are. The outside is just a tool to reflect the inside, not to mask it.

You need to retrain your thoughts. It isn't about not getting to know someone or judging them prematurely through their outward appearance. Any animal on this green earth knows that a beautiful outside just reflects good genes on the inside.

Tell me I am wrong all you want, but Mother Nature has been doing it since the dawn of time and you do it everyday yourself. I think someone said something earlier about judging the women based on their appearance was wrong since I didn't even know them. It is funny how humans 'feel' they have moved so far ahead in evolution that they are 'above' relying on natural instincts based on all observations that can be made in a situation, including appearance.

If that is truly the case and we have moved 'above' Mother Nature's tool of recognition and association, then it is simple to say that our eye sight will be no longer needed for social purposes; and we all know what happens to things that Mother Nature finds we don't need anymore. :D Or maybe you don't. Sorry, bio major, I tend to see the natural basics.

So, in closing....we'll utter this so that all the hypocrites and/or higher-than-thou-evolutionary humans will be happy....

A beautiful, or neat, or pleasing appearance isn't needed. In fact, it is part of the patriarchic society that is keeping our society at a stand still. It is wrong to question why some people do not care or not take note of how their appearance is seen by others. I am a cosmetic Nazi that should be hung from the nearest tree and set on fire upon my last breath. :D Happy now?

#40
Nan

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Greetings and Salutations...I just wanted to say that the range covered in this "sub-forum" could and perhaps should be used to teach. (I use should loosely) I truly appreciate it being taken to an academic level. But sometimes not everyone is willing/capable of going/meeting there or half way for that matter. But keep up the dialogue...wow I sound old!
"When life demands more of people than they demand of life--as is ordinarily the case--what results is a resentment of life almost as deep-seated as the fear of death"





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