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Signs, Signs Everywhere Signs...


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#21
Lise441

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Wow. Persephone (love the name btw) thanks for providing your insight to this issue. I share some of your thoughts and opinions. I have been blessed to be in two long term relationships with womyn who were lesbians and I have not dated a bisexual before, but I won't rule out the possibility of dating a TRUE bisexual. I would definately steer clear of the post Madonna-Britney Kiss bisexual womyn (I'm sure we all know who they are) who are just using the label to make themselves appear more desirable to men. Like lesbianism, bisexuality is a lifestyle that involves more than who you fuck, however I think many people who identify as bisexual think it only has to do with who you bed down with. I have a friend who has just come out as a bisexual and I know how hard it is for her, but I keep reassuring herself that she will find the real Carolyn because deep down inside she's in there. She did tell me about the bad experiences she has had with womyn she would meet and they'd find out she was bi and they told her they couldn't be with someone like that :(

One bad apple spoils the whole bunch...
Sometimes you stand on the edge of a cliff and you jump. You jump because you're tired of being scared. Sometimes you jump just to feel the fall

#22
persephone

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hi there :) i don't really feel like it's a bad apple thing. i think it's really about what happens the majority of the time. i've actually met very few wimyn who are doing it to be attractive to men. i feel like it goes a lot deeper than that for most, and i totally respect that. i actually know wimyn who say they are bi but have never actually been with wimyn and are pretty much too chicken to be. i say chicken, but i know it's very complicated and scary. i feel like bisexuality, whether it be what we may consider only bicuriosity, or whether someone truly feels split (is a 'true' bisexual), involves more than a bit of identity confusion, personality disorder, psychological distress, etc. also, i never again want to have a girlfriend spring on me, "i'm bisexual, so i really feel like i need to be with a woman AND a man." ugh
"We are not separate from spirit, we are in it." --Plotinus

#23
Lise441

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When I used the one bad apple reference I was refering to the women who only call themselves bisexual to justify why they want you to join in a threesome w/ their husband/boyfriend all in the name if bisexuality. I'm the monogamous type so I don't date/have a relationship with more than one person at a time, so I don't understand why some people feel they need to date both sexes at the same time, but that's not me and I continue to seek women who share the same mindset as me.
Sometimes you stand on the edge of a cliff and you jump. You jump because you're tired of being scared. Sometimes you jump just to feel the fall

#24
kahloeyes

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While I am not that informed on the definitions of all the identities and labels, I think I can offer another perspective on the question of bisexuality. I'll begin by commenting on a few things,

first, I am bisexual, know it, have had many years to question and soul search, and can say, it isn't the physical so much. Someone mentioned or asked how a woman can be with both man and woman, etc. Well, that I think I do understand, I'm referring to two different relationships, not threesomes, etc., which btw, is not my thing and never will be, not saying that there is anything wrong with that, its just not my thing.

Ok, so, to the issue of being with both, well, how do I put this, I am married to a man, love him, do not intend on leaving him, etc., we are best friends and thats how we met actually, we were friends first. We talk openly about our intimate selves alot, always have, and he knows I am bisexual. Now I haven't had a sexual relationship with a woman, not yet, but I have had close friendships where I have wanted to have a sexual relationship, but at that time I was not ready to confront my sexuality and it just wasn't the time for me, etc.

As for cheating, no, I do not want a relationship behind my husbands back to cheat on him, etc., and we just talked about this today. I did fear, for a while that if I pursued my other half interest (really don't know how to say it) that it would hurt him, and I reassured him (and he understood and understands) that its not that I am disatisfied with him, I mean we have a great sex life, etc, well, great is understatement, its fantastic...but, there is more to us, to our relationship than just sex. And, as much as it would be nice to say he met all my needs and I him, etc., it just isn't so...we are far more complex than that, and he is very, very masculine (I think men can vary on levels of masculinity just as women do on feminity).

But emotionally, there is a part of me that just doesn't connect with him, in or out of the bedroom, and its not his fault and I don't blame him. Its not mine either, its just that I need more, does that make any sense? There is this part of me, that he doesn't understand, or relate to, is the better term. I think he may understand it a little, but he doesn't relate to it, although he has tried, and I have also tried...and I can only say that its the need in me to connect with the female part of me, in other words, I feel inside that I am like, both, and no, its not some disorder or personality flaw, its just who I am...

and its not just curiousity nor am I looking for a threesome with me and my husband or vice versa...not that we haven't talked about what it would be like, etc., we have, but its not my heart's desire. And this much I do know, I have no desire to sleep with another man other than my husband...as male and female, we have that bond, a special bond and there is no desire for me to break that...but thats the one side of me...

then there's this other side, that aches for a love relationship with my other half, on the woman side (this is so hard for me to explain...so bear with me), not just in the physical sense, and its not that I haven't thought about it, alot, but, its not the sensual urge part I think about so much as it is the physical and mental connection, that connection that only two women can share, something that a man and woman (from my experience) can't share, because well, there is that difference, in make-up, etc.

And I'm not going to lie to you and say I haven't thought about this, struggled with this, because I do take my marriage vows seriously, however, I also, have to say, that I am more than just my husband's wife, partner, etc. There are times, and I'll just be blunt here, that I'd rather just have sex with myself (LOL, is there a label for that, lol, because I can have some awesome sex with myself...a little humor there)...is it because I want to cheat on him or that I don't love him, no, of course not...but he can't fill (or I him) all his needs, etc....there are times I just want to be alone, have my thoughts, my dreams, apart from him. In other words, my own identity, per se (and I think that we should have our own identity, regardless of what type of relationship, because if we can't love ourselves and be comfortable with ourselves then how can we expect to truly love anyone else, regardless of gender?

And I will tell you,that yes, I have thought about, and very seriously, about the ramifications or impact of my having a relationship with a woman would do to her...which is maybe why I think its probably good to form a relationship with another bisexual who is married as well (and yes, I have run across alot of adds for threesomes, etc., but I have to say, by reading alot of them, those types are looking for recreational sex, not so much relationship+sex+connection, etc; however, I have also run into just as many adds of bisexual married women who feel, similar to the way I do, that there is two parts of them, etc).

To give you an example (and why I chose the sign on that I did), Frida Kahlo, famous artist/communist, was madly in love with her husband, Diago Rivera (artist/communist) and yet, she had many lovers, both male and female. She had more lovers, and some longterm that were women however than male. So did Simone de Beauvoir, for example...

I don't believe they had any sort of disorder, or were just looking for experimentation (in fact, Frida was in love with two women that I know of and Simone I now had a long term love affair with another woman, she spoke of her very often in her diaries/letters to Sartre, etc),

these were very intelligent women, who like us, (and just think of the time that they lived in, talk about some bold, revolutionary women now), intelligent women who influenced the world like in a major way, and still are, long after their passing.

As for him thinking me and another woman is 'hot', no, thats not it either, in fact, majority of his ex girlfriends who are still his close friends were bisexuals, and two of them came out of closet as lesbians after their relationship with him (and no, he doesn't turn women into lesbians, etc., yea, we've heard that one before, no, I just think its because he doesn't confine women or men for that fact, in some box of like, you have to be this or that, etc). And to the fact that my relationship with a woman would be between me and her, not me, her, and him, and vice versa...because she would be just as special to me, as he is to me....does that make any sense?

I do think, though, and I understand it, that lesbians would and do prefer (as some here have said, although I don't think you can generalize or catagorize people, etc as being the same, etc), relationships with other lesbians, and it does make sense. But I don't wonder so much as it being a male/female to female thing as much as I think its just a person to person thing...in other words, monogamy type thing.

I will say, too, that I have wondered how much my evolution as a feminist (and extremely anti patriarchial and anti capitalist) has to do with my orientation...or better said, my inner growth, preferences, etc. And for me personally, thats a huge part of it, and I also have to say, that while I do love my husband, there is that conflict there too, and I am not sure, really, what impact my having a sexual relationship with another woman would have on that aspect...but I would have to say, it wouldn't be (if there was any impact on my feelings) the relationship or her, per se, as it would be my continual rejection of patriarchial relationships, etc. (and I am sure that doesn't make any sense, LOL, I am not really good at writing my feelings, etc in words)

I often wonder if we would have these questions, or to what extent, if we lived in communal or matriarchial/or matrilinear societies...because I do think alot of our thoughts, etc., are due to social conditioning, nuclear family, and so forth...and I think in a lot of ways, it has (the make up of our societies) sort of screwed us all up, a bit...but thats just my personal observations and feelings (and maybe I'm projecting here)

but I will say, and this is I think fact, that the traditional nuclear patriarchial relationship/roles that women have internalized, has and does do alot of harm, to our inner most self...there is a major lack of real sisterhood in our nation (and btw, I dated a man from the East years back, and he shared with me that in the Islamic society in which he lived, bisexuality -- women-- was very common, and wasn't really looked down upon, because of the way the society is, segregated, male and female, etc...and most men were not even aware because of the segregation...its like, this secret, people know but don't speak of, etc, so that I think, speaks volumes)...

sigh, it is complex isn't it? Wish it were simple, but I don't think it is, not really, well, it isn't for me...but I do know life is too short to limit ourselves to what others perceive as the 'way'...and I just keep thinking, life is so much more, you know.?
"Both the oppressed classes, women and the immediate producers, must understand that their emancipation will come from themselves. Women will find allies in the better sort of men, But the one has nothing to hope from man as a whole" Eleanor Marx

#25
blueblaze79

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Well, I thought I'd share my opinion and a little about my situation. I came out as bi, but I prefered women. I never wanted to completly rule out the idea of a guy. I dated mostly women for years and then I meet a guy who I really liked. So, I decided to give it a shot. It went well in every situation except I wasn't turned on by him, sexually. That became to important for me to allow my self to be just content. I now say I am a lesbian.

But what really gets me is when women say they are a lesbian, but end up with a man. If you like both you should say bi. [/b]

#26
Lise441

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Okay, I think I need some clarity on something I have heard so many times from married bisexual women. You're married, don't plan on leaving your husband yet you want a woman to be your secondary relationship, however you don't plan on making her your primary relationship because you're not willing to dump the male half. Now do you consider this wrong or cruel in some sorta way? I think in a situation like this someone is going to get hurt, it's inevitable as there are two people's feelings at stake and even though they may be ookay with it in the beginning someone is going to have their heart broken in the end. How do you feel about this? :roll:
Sometimes you stand on the edge of a cliff and you jump. You jump because you're tired of being scared. Sometimes you jump just to feel the fall

#27
persephone

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i hear ya, lise. that's why i think something kahloeyes said was right on the money:

Quote

I think its probably good to form a relationship with another bisexual who is married as well.

that really seems like the only reasonable solution. they share a common desire, as well as a common choice of lifestyle. they will understand each other and (hopefully) respect each other's marriages. i can't see a lesbian getting involved in a situation like that unless she's a masochist.

p.s. kahloeyes, i love that you quote eleanor marx!
"We are not separate from spirit, we are in it." --Plotinus

#28
kahloeyes

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Hi, ok, I'll reply to both, Lise441 and Persephone, (I'm up late, lol reading through these posts, wow, so much, and some of its kind of confusing, lol, alot of analysis)

ok, Lise441, for one, she wouldn't be secondary, she too would be primary. And yes, Persephone is correct, this is why I would seek out someone with like mind, etc (and I have read some similar like me, that want two partners, long term and even life time, kind of like a male partner and a female partner, etc and I was a little surprised that over the past year, I've seen more like this). I've even seen couples wanting another couple for like, a foursome marriage type thing, LOL, don't ask me how that would work I have no idea, but well, what can I say.

I also have to add that I have children, and my marriage is a blended family, with children, so that has to be taken into consideration, therefore, I would seek out women who were also in like situations or who were comfortable with my situation, etc. So, lets say, hypothetical, that I was to meet a woman, who was not married, and was a bisexual looking for a long-term relationship, or a lesbian looking for a long term relationship, well, I would really have to be very upfront with her, (btw, I'm somewhat of a realistic type person, having lived on the streets with two children, single parent for years, etc., I've lived a hellish life so I don't play up the pretense or live in a fantasy, if you know what I mean...can't afford to, etc so that may be why I am very realistic about relationships, etc),

anyhow, I would have to be upfront with her, and honestly, unless she was older (40s +) and comfortable with my being married, etc., I would have to keep the relationship friend-platonic, etc, because I wouldn't delude myself into thinking (or her for that fact) that things may change. I have read some accounts of lesbians and/or bi's who have fallen madly in love with married women, and even women who are in bad marriages but can't leave at the time due to children, financial reasons, etc., and the woman is just miserable, waiting and hoping, and frankly, I don't think thats fair. I wouldn't want that done to me, so I sure wouldn't do it to someone else.

So yes, being married and bisexual IS complicated, from everything I have read, researched, its not the same, like, two single lesbian women meeting and forming a deep relationship, etc...and from what I have seen, so far, is two scenarios,

one, is bi women who are married that have short term, or experimental, or just sex buddy type relationships, etc., with other bi women or lesbians, etc. Usually they are not wanting monogamy and I really can't say alot on the why's, etc., because I would have to presume it differs from case to case.

the other is bi women who are married that have long term love relationships with other bi women who are married, and I've even seen (read) about some that have lasted a lifetime, its rare, but it happens. And I think in those situations (what I have assumed by reading) is that the relationship is a mutual, friend and lover relationship, like friends but that is more intimate, etc (well something like that).

Now, I think too, there can be issues where the men are concerned, as well, and too, this I think varies on the type of marriage, or how open the marriage is, etc. I have read of one account where two women fell in love, were not in the best of marriages, and both left their husbands and moved in together and are now life time partners...now whether this is more so during certain phases in life (age) I don't know....but there is a good study on this, I just saw it the other day, on women who in their 40s, etc., either come to terms with their bisexuality, or with their lesbian (not sure is it lesbianism, ???--forgive me, I'm new on alot of the terminology) and I would have to wonder, if there is something about getting to a point where relationship with a man is no longer attractive (and I know I am probably getting into something here that is uncomfortable, but I have been in several abusive relationships in the past, so I tend to explore these areas...have needed to, for my own closure, understanding, etc), and some women (emphasis on some) just get turned off by heterosexual relationships, etc and pursue bisexuality, or lesbianism??? And I don't think there is anything wrong with that, (I think we've learned to limit ourselves due to social conditioning, etc., and maybe why the whole bisexual thing is a touchy subject, etc, for some, don't know, I am not well read on this yet)

but I am also speaking from my own evolution (and I call it evolution because, lol, I have evolved, so much...grown, changed, etc., and much of its been through alot of pain...however, it came through looking through that pain, facing it, asking why, etc., and looking for answers, and so forth...and I do think, its different for everyone, etc)

but I will say, that part of my evolution, was one day, and it hit me hard, but I used to be so soft, inside, in my younger days, and through the years and through alot of pain (mostly due to bad relationships with men, etc), and also, I work in activism on women's issues (violence against women, etc) and that has had a Major impact/influence on me....more than words would ever express here,

but one day, it hit me, just how hidden that woman in me had become, because having to survive (and being very hard ass to survive, etc), I guess she got lost somewhere....so I started to seriously search, within myself, think, alot...

(and I think men too, go through this, this is what I meant about patriarchy and capitalism because of how we internalize commodification/exploitation, stripping away of humaness, etc, comradry and communal family, etc harming us in ways we are not often aware of, again, Gramsci good one to read on this)...

so, to answer your question, my perceptions on loving, have changed. So, if I were to meet that special someone (woman), she would be my primary, female love just as my husband would be primary male love...and yes, it would be better if she has her primary male love,

now, I guess my question has been, (and something I am struggling with), is why the need for more than the one to one monogamy? Is it simply a lack of sisterhood (and yea, we say sister in the West but we really don't have the sisterhood that is common in like, Eastern societies, etc), or is it, that women are more dimensional, [but come to think of it, there is more bi men that are married out there than women, hmmmm],

or is it, that the answer lies in the whole nuclear set up thing? I don't know, but I do know, I believe you can love more than one person at the same time...and just as strong and well you know, come to think of it, LOL, men did it, at once, they had more than one wife, etc., and society doesn't really scoff at that too much,

so why is it any different for women? You know, Lise441, if you would have asked me this, like 15 years ago, I would have said, oh, there can only be one primary and no one else...but I would have to say, that now, looking back, my feelings then, (and I'm referring to either heterosexual or homosexual relationships here) were more of what I felt about my wanting to be the one and only special, etc...

but, on the other hand, I personally draw the line at the whole free sex play around thing too, (been there, done that, and its not all its cracked up to be, and again, I don't think it matters whether its heterosexual or homosexual, etc), because people are people, not just flesh to get off on, etc...(and I do think there is a lot of that in our society today and I would have to ask, how much of that is due to fear of true intimacy, not intimacy in a sexual way, you know you can be with someone for years, have sex, take marriage for instance, and never be really intimate, etc), and the fact that materialism has taken precedence over humanism, etc...think Plato once wrote something on this...

now not trying to be puritanical (and I am not, by no means), there is this song, by Tori Amos, can't recall the name, but it goes something like this, "why would I lie with you or something like that, when you don't value what I value, etc etc",

and from personal experience, (boy it sure pays some heavy bills), or maybe facing getting older, death, etc., I am just seeing things very differently...

so that special woman, friend, lover, would be very primary and would be just as precious to me, as the rest of my family is to me, my friends, my comrades...just more on an intimate level (mental and physical)...and I suppose I am fortunate that my husband is ok with this...

in fact, he admitted to me, that he had a gay relationship at one time, long ago (in his 20s) so, well, hmmm,

he told me, why limit yourself to only loving one half of the human population? And I'm rambling on here, so sorry, LOL...and Persephone, yes, I love Eleanor Marx, I love Kollanti (Alexia Kollanti) too, my favorite work of hers is "Red Love", about a love relationship between an anarchist and a communist, it was symbolic too, however, of Russia (1900s) and of course, well, anyhow...

this whole understanding of our sexuality, never gets any easier, does it?

:)
"Both the oppressed classes, women and the immediate producers, must understand that their emancipation will come from themselves. Women will find allies in the better sort of men, But the one has nothing to hope from man as a whole" Eleanor Marx

#29
kahloeyes

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OH, and I have to say this...

regarding the STDs, and Aids,

there are segments of populations literally Dying out due to Aids, (Africa, Asia, etc) and its not because of bisexuals or homosexuals...

its due to the patraiarchy and misogyny cultures that have deemed women to less than second class status, by men who absolutely refuse to wear condoms (Congo, for example, even with the education of the risks, of military men sleeping with prostitutes, the men still refuse to wear condoms because women, to them, have no value, etc),

its due to the fact that still today, the ratification of women's rights internationally has still not been signed, by US in fact...

so, no, STDs are not caused by bisexuals...nor is AIDS. Fact, AIDs and STDS are higher in numbers and increasing in heterosexuals, (even though we don't hear about it as much now, it hasn't gone away),

and while I am not into the free sex (and when I say free sex, I am referring to sleeping with anyone, not caring about that person, basically using that person like a sex toy, and am speaking of 'intent' here, I am not referring to casual sex, that is understandable and consenting between two adults, with a basis of respect, and caring (not committed or in long term relationship, etc...) about the other person, and again, I think that goes to the 'intent'... and I would have to say, by experience, that men, more than women, use people, with no regard for that person's (women here) welfare, etc....and that actually, stems from the subjugation of women in the first place (the women's place or role is this, etc etc etc)

and I only mention this because I work around (politics) alot of men that are really big into the 'free sex' ideal, but when you probe, dig deeper, its basically women are just T & A to be screwed and tossed aside, so thats what I do speak against, etc...

and its that degradation of women, that has caused AIDs in many countries, that and sexual trafficking (India, Nepal, etc)...

so, no, again, STDs and AIDS is not due to women having sexual freedom and choice...and I cannot emphasize that enough...and I think too, that is alot of the reasons I did come to terms with my sexuality, because haven't we been dictated to long enough, by what our place should be as far as sex is concerned? (or relationships, etc) by the norms set historically by 'men'?

and I also have to say, regardless of whether a woman is heterosexual, lesbian, bi, etc., if she has chosen, to be the master of her sexuality and chooses who and when she will sleep with (that same freedom that men have been entitled to for centuries), that doesn't make her a 'slut'...

I'm sorry but I had to comment on that...we've been subjugated long enough, its time we rise up, and be empowered...

because its through that empowerment and self acceptance that we learn to treat others with that same respect, empowerment, and acceptance...we should remember that. I don't agree with alot of choices that other women may make, but I agree that they have the right to make those choices, without being labeled in negative connotations...etc.

Not wanting to be offensive here, but felt that should be pointed out. We have enough to battle against, (oppressive societal more's, sexism, etc) and we have to be careful, I think, that we don't transfer that to each other, etc...because it effects us all, it really does.

In regards to the cheating, no one likes being cheated on, it hurts, it makes us feel violated, etc., and I see what is being stated there, etc., but it takes two in a relationship, there are those that cheat, sure, that do so for reasons that I don't concur with (and again, I think its that whole fear of intimacy, thing...so much easier to hide, or build walls if we go from person to person, etc...and of course, its more complex than that, etc...and its not always fear of intimacy, etc), it sometimes is poor communication or the inability (or fear of) being honest and telling your partner that you want out, etc., or there could be various other reasons.

And I am not condoning cheating, don't get me wrong...but I would have to add, that women, (speaking of West here, and again, not limiting this to heterosexual or homosexual relationships) have not had that many years of sexual liberation (if you know what I mean) and I think we are still processing alot of it, etc...(in spite of the backlash, rise in conservatism, etc), and still learning about that whole power issue, etc...

don't know why I felt the need to say any of this, but I did...maybe why there is that need for more understanding, and tolerance, etc...

again, please don't take this wrong, I'm not saying any of this to be spiteful or catty, I work in activism, women's rights (and labor issues) and there are vast numbers of women dying of AIDS in India (from being forced into brothels, etc, via trafficking, etc), populations dying in Africa (and its also because of geo-political racism---) and numbers of AIDs, is increasing in women in Latin America, Asia, Russia...

so yea, I'm kind of outspoken and adament on issues like this, because in those societies, women's sexuality is so controlled and to say, that aids and/or stds are higher in bisexuals, etc., or homosexuals...is like, blaming women. (and in many of the traditional patriarchy/misogynist cultures they do blame women, hell they blame women for being raped, etc) and thats why I had to comment on this.
"Both the oppressed classes, women and the immediate producers, must understand that their emancipation will come from themselves. Women will find allies in the better sort of men, But the one has nothing to hope from man as a whole" Eleanor Marx

#30
blueblaze79

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I definetly feel ya lise. There isn't anyway to avoid someone getting hurt. Unless they were both in other relationships. If not I think it is wrong for the one in the relationship with a man to allow the other to be set up for faliure. If she really loved or cared about her she wouldn't want to see her settle. I don't see how she would think she could have two people both being primary in one relationship with her. Someone somewhere will have to take the back seat. And even if they say nothing they are probably back there crying.





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