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Inter-racial Relationships


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#21
Nan

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While I understand and am empathetic to the situation of an individual wanting to identify with a certain race and have it as their own. And I am cognizant of the pain, resentment and weight that is carried by all individuals to multiple degrees, the anger displayed here does not alleviate the situation. I think some very harsh things have been directed toward "domino."

Does having something as your own require denying it from others, an inability to share it, a lack of flexibility as to what your interpretation of it is as compared to others who may think they have something similar.

I encourage some acceptance of where we all think we are and suggest that instead of utilizing such binary dichotomies of self identification and race classification that we work to define ourselves as we are and accept others as they define themselves. I know it is a lot harder than what I am simply saying, because even if one is able to do so one must still live in the world where others see only the polarity of things, and an infinite amount of other reasons or lack there of.

But can we not see how the position, of rejecting an individual's self identification as invalid or as not belonging to them, can make us no better than those oppressors toward whom we feel such anger.

On another note, the slavery issue, while deeply ingrained is not a card that needs to be played here. How can you accuse a person who is genuinely trying to relate to and understand you of being the same person who would have owned slaves, or you for that matter? That was a low blow, and only "domino" knows and can say such things about her choices and actions if so chosen. Furthermore, with the vast discrepancies concerning the “ideologies” of individuals, communities and cultures rewinding time is fairly unrealistic. Her here and now is a lot more similar to your here and now either of you are to the reality of 150 years ago.

I know the need to claim something as one's own, but the only thing we really own is ourselves. Yes, it is nice that we can say that, rampant slavery and slave labor is relatively gone as we immediately know it in the United States (minimum wage, immigrants and other countries aside)
But our minds do not need to be subjected to the institutions of the past.

Grow and evolve. Forgive and understand.

We can all embrace everything and anything. It is about what one chooses to embrace; we do not want to start limiting those choices. Setting rules as to how much, to what extent and who, when, where and why we embrace whatever we embrace is defeating.

But do it if you choose, or not or to what ever degree. Who am I to tell you what to do with your life.
"When life demands more of people than they demand of life--as is ordinarily the case--what results is a resentment of life almost as deep-seated as the fear of death"

#22
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Its funny Nan, that you have not responded to the Queer Politics forum "queerness and whiteness", but find yourself in defense of another white woman, who has also decided NOT to discuss racism, within their own selves....It is funny that every time (on this website anyway)...a black woman disscuss her situation in amerika..she is automatically labeled as "angry". I'm begining to think that the sterotypes that you see on your amerikan television about black women, are having an affect on you, Nan....Why is that? You address me for bringing up the topic of racism, but you won't respond to other questions in this forum, about racism within the white lesbian community....intresting...I'm not saying not to contribute...I'm just saying that on the topic of queerness and whiteness, white women sat back and said nothing....

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Does having something as your own require denying it from others
In my personal opinion, black amerika and it's current state is more unique than any other peoples that exist in this country today (except for those your forefathers put on resevations). You Nan were not paying attention to the things that I have written to Domino, and thats okay...because we tend to ignore what we want...Domino, identifies herself as a BLACK woman...but in the same breath...mentions to the world that she is in fact a white woman. My problem is that, if Domino....loved being a "black woman" so much...why would she mention her true race? Is it because she wanted attention? Is it because she wanted for people to think that she was different? What is the motive behind Domino mentioning her true race? This is a question you need to consider...it is quite clear (to me anyway) that Domino embraces her whiteness, but at the same time...tries to embrace blackness. Her griping about how the people in the black community treat her...is one reason why I say this. Does she feel that because she is a white woman in a black community, that she shouldn't be treated like this? Is she appauled that black people in amerika will not embrace her because she is white? We need to ask the right questions...

Domino (in my opinion) could give a rats ass about being black...she wants for people reading this thread to be amazed that she, a WHITE woman is choosing to be black...I say this because, once again...her first thread on this forum...talked about whiteness...

Put that in your pipe...and inhale.........because I did.

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On another note, the slavery issue, while deeply ingrained is not a card that needs to be played here.
Once again...you were not reading...and you might think I'm a flaming asshole, but that is what you are conditioned to think. The original topic of this forum...is Interracial Relationships...I was concerned with, what black lesbian women were feeling in regards to only viewing white women as beautiful...If you have not noticed...slavery..was not only physical...it was also mental...black women and black men...were taught to hate themselves...and with hating themselves...they were taught to embrace the culture of white people. This goes back to slavery. I am appauled and even shocked that you would say that this post has nothing to do with slavery...the state of black African's in amerika today...is totally linked to their being sold as a comodity...on their landing in your country..

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Her here and now is a lot more similar to your here and now either of you are to the reality of 150 years ago.
I am in love with this statement because it shows me that you feel the race problem is over in your country...when you get a chance...please read about people like Emmet Till...Chaka Sankofa...and better yet Amado Diallo...are you saying that what we as black Africans is this country are constantly going through...has nothing to do with what was going on 150 years ago...? If you are implying this...I believe dear...you should come walk where I walk...Everything that black Africans go through in this country is linked to the past...discrediting the past and saying that it is not important...could have to do with...the guilt that white people in amerika have...this is what forces you to say shit like "One Love....Lets Forgive and Forget"....No One would tell a Jew to forgive and forget, what their forefathers went through...to this you might say..."Well Zimbabwe... what happened to the Jews is a whole lot worse than what happened to black people"(and by the way I have heard this before)....and to that I would put my head back and laugh...People allow for all other races to vent, on things that went on in history against them...but I have seemed to notice, that when black African's show some form of pride, or a nonforgiving attitude, to the one who did them harm...they are seen as complaining...or throwing shit out of context...why is this so?

#23
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Yes, it is nice that we can say that, rampant slavery and slave labor is relatively gone as we immediately know it in the United States

Is it really? Or does it look that way, because your media...does not talk about it...*hmmm.....rubs chin*, Nan you are suppose to defend your country...go right on ahead...it has been built to preserve your right to be "free", and thats okay...the rule book did not include me in it...so please don't expect for me to embrace it...There are about 250 sweatshops in your country...they make your clothes...sew your linen, and do other great things...these people who work in these sweatshops are poor people of color...

#24
zami

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I would like to second all of what ZimbaBwe has said and find it very upsetting that a discussion about privilege, power and accountability has been ignored so that we can call the black folks angry in a forum named Issues Specific to Queer Women of Color. Now, although I am more than aware that RACISM is very specific to me, I am not sure how I feel about this space being coopted by folks who tell women of colour that 1 - racism doesn't exist where they are (i.e. you can get a job before me, etc.) or 2 - that we should put away our SLAVERY CARDS. I want to really know when my 500 year history of pain, oppression, displacement, exile, loss, murder, rape and genocide has been reduced to a 'card.' How hurtful.

I also don't understand either, why it is that anger is seen as useless. I think it may be time for folks to read some Audre Lorde, "On the Uses of Anger." Really now. Remember.."every woman has well stocked arsenal of anger potentially useful against those oppressions, personal and institutional, which brought that anger into being. Focused with precision it can become a powerful source of energy serving progress and change".

I also find it interesting, as ZimbaBwe so well pointed out that a discussion on whiteness is occuring and neither one of you participated. At all. And I mean, folks of colour and white folks were participating (although more so folks of colour than white folks). So...what about that? Why is it that you felt the need to come in and defend someone who, I might add, tried to deny the effects of racism? Because of course, the first thing a person who identifies as of colour would do is to talk about 'reverse racism'. /sarcasm

And believe me, "having something of my own" like RACISM is not something I am hoping to horde for myself. Remember, being black is not all about rap songs and braided hair. There is no essential BLACKNESS that we all carry with us. Again, 'being raised black' is a ridiculous statement - what does that even mean? I've asked once and the question was ignored. If I ate curry chicken and rice all my life is that 'raised black?' I really want folks to tell me.

It is a privilege to want us all to be fluid and forget about binaries. I think what is most important when thinking through this is that society boxes you in - you have no choice. Domino will be read as white, and I will not be, and therein lies the reality of our binaries - they work to box you in, to stigmatize and to deny you humanity while granting others privilege. So it may be all well and good to say, "let's forget about binaries" when in fact, racism works to keep that binary intact - and I have no choice in the matter - i.e. tomorrow, I can not ID as WHITE. Sure, I'll be all about everyone identifying as black in the far distant future when those same folks are ACCOUNTABLE for their privilege and work to dismantle a system that continues to benefit them.

Oh, and by the way, colorblindness will not solve this dilemma, just an FYI.

And really, to deny the way slavery has impacted all of our lives, allowed for folks to have privilege over other folks, and continues to shape the way society sees people based on race - well, it is totally absurd. Colonizaton continues - even if you want to believe your good ol' US of A is the land of the free and the home of the brave.

I'll forgive when my language is returned to me, my history is returned to me, my lineage is returned to me, my past is returned to me. Remember, if white folks had all stayed put, I wouldn't be talking to you right now in the colonizers language.
"If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive" ~ Audre Lorde

#25
domino

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Hello,ladies..yes I am replying to your responses..I should have known better to open up Pandora's proverbial Box,but I just had to..You see, if we don't talk about it it won't ever go away...I took the trouble to do some research into MY WHITENESS; specifically,I am 1/8 Native American and 7/8 Irish..a simple lesson for those of you who don't understand anything about Irish politics or history will be given in a moment...I know a lady who runs a local laundromat here,she is alot like myself,lives in two cultures,yet claiming neither for herself...she is a mother of five? kids(every time I go in there I meet yet another of her children) some completely biologically white,others mixed black and white..she has some kids from a previous relationship,marriage,etc. that are white kids,and some who are racially mixed black and white..all of these kids are biologically hers.Her current husband is a African American male..Now you know what I'm about to say..How is she raising the white kids? Like they were black...YES I asked her.She speaks with a New Orleans native black persons speach,and so do ALL her children;black and white.Now, for those of you who didn't get it the first time,I was raised in exactly the same manner except my step-mother who legally adopted me,was not a WHITE woman,she was a BLACK woman.I am going to give the history lesson now..(and while I realize this is not America particularly,I am talking about,this is :lol: IRISH HIS-story...here goes:
May 10 1655, The British arrived in Jamaica. Prisioners taken in royalist uprisings were sent out as servants of the state.October 1655,it was ordered that 1,000 Irish boys and girls 14 years of age or younger be sent to Jamaica and in 1656, 1,200 men from Scotland and Ireland...Source Quote www.jamaicanfamilysearch.com
...
1656 more than 60,000 Irish Catholics had been sent as slaves to Barbados and other islands in the carribean.
1672 over 6,000 Irish boys and women sold as slaves since England gained control over Jamaica...Source Quote http://members.tripo...g4anna/hist.htm
"One Love":The Black Irish of Jamaica...Numbers vary,but reliable estimates put the number of Irish shipped out at between 30,000 and 80,000 persons.Source Quote www.thewildgeese.com( pgs1-3)
A Jesuit priest Father J.J Williams,wrote a book in 1932 entitled"The Black Irish Of Jamaica".In it he details many of the shipments of Irish folk from Barbados and direct from Ireland.The last shipment appears to have been made in 1841 from Limerick,Ireland aboard the SS Robert Kerr. We thus have records spanning 200 years involving thousands of mainly teenage boys and girls.Barbados,which recieved the majority of deportees from Ireland,still has a small population of "Red Shanks"or (red legs)-the descendants of Irish labourers.Montserrat,was populated almost entirely by Irish slaves.
ST.Kitts has built a monument to Irish slavery in commemoration of the 25,000 Irish men,women,and children who were shipped there as slaves.In one particularly gruelling story,over 150 Irish slaves were caught practicing catholicism and were shipped to tiny Crab Island were they were left to starve.Many of the Irish and their descendants who survived,were eventually shipped from the West Indies sugar plantations to the new English settlements in SOUTH CAROLINA,USA.
I want all of you to know,I am not in disagreement that racism exists,it does;I too have been a victim of it just in a different way than a person of color may experience it,but rather as a butch female,and occasionally as a white woman. I prefer to date a black woman over a white woman only because I do not find my own race all that sexually attractive...not saying I haven't looked,I just don't choose that for myself.I will continue to fight pre-judge-ice everytime I encounter it,for all of us,no matter the circumstance.All I am saying is this:if we are all in the same boat,bickering amongst ourselves over who gets what,is more hated,etc. we will never get anywhere close to solving the problem,unless we stick together.I have a reason to..my relatives go through what all Black Americans go through. ONE LOVE Domino



#26
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I took the trouble to do some research into MY WHITENESS; specifically,I am 1/8 Native American and 7/8 Irish.

lol...Domino...you are one of the most confused individuals that I have ever come across...and I can't feel bad for you....I just feel sorry that you "took the trouble" to find out about your whiteness...lol...why was that trouble? You seem to go through great lengths to find out about your "blackness"and to prove to the world that you are black, but your whiteness is trouble. It's funny that you are reaching so far...to find out what you are..7/8th...come on...give me a fucking break. Go find a RESERVATION that your forefathers built for The Natives and tell them that you are 7/8..you might not make it home..
Domino, you have some serious self-hatred issues...I said it once and I will say it again, embrace your whiteness...
And as for the whole...white irish people, went through what Black African people went through is total bullshit...because once the true blue irish-men, came to this country and saw the amerikan white man's hatred for Black Africans, his irish ass jumped on the bandwagon...remember...Black is something that you can't get rid of...and irish accent, is so much easier. In your country Domino...this is what it is...work to change it. Stop trying to school me to believe what you want me to believe (because I guess, you believe that you are right...that goes along with your whiteness...its a complex...read up on it). There was a time in YOUR countries history, that white italians and irishmen were lynched for dealing with Black people...after a while...the italians blended in, with the irishmen, and guess what??? They all agreed they were not like "the niggers", and their skin color had alot to do with that...

Top of the Morning to You...Domino..

#27
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Sorry, I just had to add this...please Domino tell me (because you are sooo wise), when did Black Africans become amerikan? What year was that? And when was the last time that you read up on your Constitution? When you get a chance, read up on what, it says about Natives, and Black Africans...you mention what Irish people went through, but in your drawn out essay...but you never give justice to your "7/8 Native" side....interesting...I wonder why you choose to defend Ireland, and not talk about your other half...

I bet now, you're gonna tell the forum, that you are 3/4 Jamaican, and 1/2 Hatitian....Embrace the simple things...embrace your whiteness

#28
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lol...Domino, I just love the way you copied and pasted another person's essay...that's rich shit right there... :wink:

#29
Nan

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I am truly sorry that the interpretation of my comment has such an effect, if it is indeed undesirable. While I think some interesting and valid points have come from it, it was by no means my intention to marginalize or negate any human experience or struggle. After having read through the very well articulated points of view I wanted to participate in what I understood to be dialogue. However, I found it somewhat intimidating to enter forums where individuals were being attacked, as I interpreted some of the things that had been stated. I was simply hoping to point out that it is possible to discuss the world as each of us know and experience it and thus come to a better understanding of it without the personal attacks, of which I now find myself a target.

There are many things that have been stated in regard to my post. If I were indeed the person who I am accused of being, then the claims might have merit. However, I am not. The picture painted of me by others would not lead one to the conclusion that I share many opinions with those from whom I receive such diatribe. I do not feel the need to continue to defend myself against the accusations and insults for they are drawn from the same assumptions that I am accused of making, but I hope they have served and continue to serve their purpose. If I had foreseen the manner in which my comments would have been distorted from their intention I would have continued to allow my thoughts to marinate instead of thinking that I was welcome to participate as part of a respectful dialogue.

Concerning the issue of slavery, in no way was I suggesting that it should be forgotten or that it does not have an ingrained impact on the realities of us all. I was attempting to express how I think it possible for a meaningful and mature dialogue to occur without resorting to assumptions and accusations. Such as accusing “domino” of being one who would have owned a slave simply because of the pigment of her skin. If education has taught us anything it is that so much of what we think and know is socially conditioned, “domino” may have had very similar social experiences that may or may not have been internalized differently due to the color of her skin. I am sorry if it seems that I was not treating slavery with respect equivalent to the weight with which it and its aftermath still loom. Additionally, there was no request for slavery to be “forgotten.” The closest thing to that which was mentioned is “Grow and evolve. Forgive and understand.” If that was taken as a suggestion to forget, I am sorry.

The reference to “claim something as one’s own,” this can be and likely has been interpreted many ways. I am sorry if it was not expressed clearly that I was referring to aspects of an individual’s identity. As opposed to racism, which one may choose to identify or claim.

Anger is indeed a valid human emotion. I do not wish to render it otherwise in any way likewise sarcasm. I feel that their employment here, or my interpretation of such, registers as hostile which is not conducive to a safe environment for anyone.

Finally, I am excusing myself from further participation in this thread. Think of that what you will. I am grateful that I know who I am as I constantly evolve and that I do not depend on others to define and validate my existence.
"When life demands more of people than they demand of life--as is ordinarily the case--what results is a resentment of life almost as deep-seated as the fear of death"

#30
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Nan.
I have to say that I really appreciate what you have written in regards to the thread that I posted. In the beginning of this thread, I offered my apologies before it was indeed needed. Since this thread will no longer exist in a few days (or maybe even less) I have to thank you for participating in the discussion. The reason why, I had so many issues in reviewing domino's argument was because I felt and still feel that she
(as a white woman in amerika) was not trying to understand my expereince as a black woman, but was trying to be my experience and with that take my experience and turn it into her expereince...if that makes any sense...She was trying to get me to understand why black Africans in amerika treated her so badly...because she was a white woman...I never understood why she would assume that I would side with her opinon on racism in her country.

I also wanted to say that I appreciate what you have written in regards to the slavery issue. To many times, people of all races look at black Africans in the diaspora as a people who are privleged and "better off", than they would have been if they were still on the African continent. I think what you have written is a huge step into understanding racism in your country, not only as a white person...but as another lesbian, and moreso a human. If what I have written against domino (a white woman) has affected you as a white woman, that was not my intention.

You are correct, upon the first arrival of African slaves on the shores of the Carolina's, not all white amerikans owned slaves. My argument was that...if we lived in those times...I sincerly doubt that domino...would be so bent on considering herself a black individual. Although she raises the fact that she was raised by a black woman who later adopted her...during slavery that was the case for most white children, (these black women were called nannies, they often raised white children from birth, before and after taking care of their own children) and these white children became the owners of the black women who breast fed them...

With that being said...once again Nan, I didn't mean to offend you..I just wanted you to question the actions of domino, and her attitude towards racism in her country........sankofa.





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