Guest EmberPhase

people who don't like the way other people look in public

84 posts in this topic

Now to start out, this is just my opinion and my own personal wonderings. I would ask that no one take offense to it, I simply do not understand the reason behind my following statement/inquiry. It is something that I have often thought on, long and hard, when I have encountered the following type of people. Maybe someone out there, even ones like the following, could help enlighten me. Enlightenment is my goal.

Ok, here is my wondering. I was at work the other day, I work in a public place, and a lesbian couple came through the door. There was a short one with short dark hair and a tall one with a little longer brown hair. Now, maybe I am just too super femme in my ways of attraction, but these women appalled me physically (reminder, just a personal opinion/attraction). They were very homely looking, no makeup what so ever, and their clothing wasn't flattering their frames in the least. The taller one with the longer hair, her hair was so limp that wet noodles would have had more body and bounce. Now, my wondering is, why do some lesbians feel this is the way to look?

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't wear makeup everyday and I don't dress to the 9's everyday, but if I look in the mirror and saw in myself what I saw in them, I would have tried something. It could have, and must likely would have, been a minimal attempt at polishing my appearance, but I would have attempted it.

I was not attracted to either one of them in the least due to their outward appearance (yes, I said outward, I know they could be beautiful on the inside but I am just wondering about "presentation" right now). Does anyone know why some lesbians tend to follow this path in their personal presentation? It is almost like, and forgive my ignorance on the topic, they "refuse" to attempt to polish their appearance.

I guess my wondering is why some lesbians have this tendency whenit comes to their personal appearance and if it is really a helper or a henderance to their finding someone to be with. I am not really referring to the "butch" look per-say. I have seen several butch-typed women that still seemed like they looked in the mirror that morning to make sure their appearance was one that would please another's eye.

If you think you have any thoughts, comments, explanations, or whatever, please feel free to enlighten me. I have thought on it many times in my life and I have never really seemed to obtain an answer from my own musings.

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I've been out in public and seen people that I think could use a little makeover as well (or a big makeover, depending...). But not just lesbians, lots of other people present themselves this way. I guess I just figure whatever makes them comfortable is just fine with me. I am generally not attracted to girls with poor hygeine myself, but obviously someone is, or it wouldn't have been a couple!!

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This bugs the crapola out of me too Ember. Me a newly sort of outish lesbian, loses hope that anyone decent looking exists for me. However there are the small few of us who do take pride in the way we look. I have even met one or two. I don't understand it either though. and aren't two butchy chicks just 2 gay guys? If I wanted to date a girl who looked like a guy then I wouldn't have this whole lesbian dilema in the first place. So Ember let us hold up our curling irons and mascara brushes and unite to take pride in at least our looks!

And yes inside does matter, but it needs to work together with the outside.

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...and aren't two butchy chicks just 2 gay guys? If I wanted to date a girl who looked like a guy then I wouldn't have this whole lesbian dilema in the first place...

Hello garbage7,

Care to explain this a bit futher? I'm rather perplexed.

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Explain what? It means exactly what I said. A lot of lesbians look like 14 year old boys and act like boys as well. If I wanted to be with someone who looked and acted like a boy I wouldn't be a lesbian. I would be trying to date boys and men. The whole purpose of my lesbianicity is that I want to be with a woman, someone who both looks and acts like a woman. I don't mind a little tomboyishness, but I just don't understand the whole butch thing I guess.

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...but I just don't understand the whole butch thing I guess.

Well, perhaps that is where you should have started. To state that women who are butch are basically "gay men" is pretty offensive to those who do not identify as men, and to an historical and cultural community of women who identify with the label butch. I know that so many of my butch sistahs and foremothers would be soooo upset to hear that you sweepingly generalized a whole community by stating that they act like 14 year old boys.

There are also, many non-butch identified and butch identified lesbians that find butches extremely attractive, subversive and don't believe that they are just 'men.' Well (here comes the academic in me) you might try reading some stuff around this topic, like work by Joan Nestle, Gayle Rubin and J. Halberstam (although Halberstam has some issues).

I have read on the board that you are newly out and newly finding community. I can assure you that dissing the butches in queer communities, stating that they are basically "boys" is certainly not going to get you into a community in a hurry. Especially since the idea that butches are not women or are trying to be men is a way old patriarchal game played by many many many homophobes and those who have internalized that crap. I also believe that misogyny isn't fun, and hating on butches because you believe in tired, old dichotomous understandings of masculinity and femininity is weak.

And just so you know, my queerness and lesbian identity isn't shaped on solely being attracted to "women who look like women' or whatever the hell that means. Yes, desire is part of my politics, but subverting mainstream (read white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalist and imperialist, homophobic) ideas about what makes one a 'woman' is also at the front of my game.

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Now, my wondering is, why do some lesbians feel this is the way to look?

So...... your implying that lesbians must dress or look a diffrent way then straight women? The word lesbian is not all defining, being a lesbian is just one aspect of a whole life. There could be many possibilities as to why those two women looked the way they did that day. But because they did look "homely" doesnt mean that they are worth any less than you are. Besides, who the fuck cares what they were wearing or how there hair looked?

I had to learn the hard way that looks are worth there weight in gold, which basically means there not worth shit when you really get down to it. Skin deep is exactly that... skin deep. Ive been with some really attractive chicks and they all turned out to be insane and really ugly on the inside.

So dont be so quick to judge becuase you just might write someone off based on thier looks, that could have made you really really happy had you taken the time to get to know whats on the inside. That would really be a shame. Inner beauty has a way of turning into outer beauty.

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Now, my wondering is, why do some lesbians feel this is the way to look?

So...... your implying that lesbians must dress or look a diffrent way then straight women? The word lesbian is not all defining, being a lesbian is just one aspect of a whole life. There could be many possibilities as to why those two women looked the way they did that day. But because they did look "homely" doesnt mean that they are worth any less than you are. Besides, who the fuck cares what they were wearing or how there hair looked?

I had to learn the hard way that looks are worth there weight in gold, which basically means there not worth shit when you really get down to it. Skin deep is exactly that... skin deep. Ive been with some really attractive chicks and they all turned out to be insane and really ugly on the inside.

So dont be so quick to judge becuase you just might write someone off based on thier looks, that could have made you really really happy had you taken the time to get to know whats on the inside. That would really be a shame. Inner beauty has a way of turning into outer beauty.

"Besides, who the fuck cares what they were wearing or how there hair looked? "

Well, basically, at that time I cared. As a WOMAN myself, I felt that the neglect of their own appear and presence while out in public was slightly offensive and it caught me off guard. That was my point (maybe it is just a southern thing, who knows? We southern women tend to like to see beauty in a flower).

Oh, other stuff that I didn't mention is how they snapped and fought with one another like two cats tired of each other's company but too scared and dependent to let the other go. There! Happy now that I have "elaborated" on their INNER beauty? Such lovely creatures they were.

Anyhow, the point was about LOOKS, not their personality. Did anyone read my entry? Or maybe I should ask can anyone (other than Garbage) read?

....and the fun begins.

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Explain what? It means exactly what I said. A lot of lesbians look like 14 year old boys and act like boys as well. If I wanted to be with someone who looked and acted like a boy I wouldn't be a lesbian. I would be trying to date boys and men. The whole purpose of my lesbianicity is that I want to be with a woman, someone who both looks and acts like a woman. I don't mind a little tomboyishness, but I just don't understand the whole butch thing I guess.

To summarize....I guess what Garbage and I are trying to understand it why some women, who happen to be lesbians, feel that they have to turn in their makeup and 'personal appearance' card to obtain and carry the "I like women" card. Well, at least that is what I wonder (hint, hint, the point of my org'l entry).

It almost seems like they are making the statement to other females, that you aren't truly a lesbian if you wear eyeshadow and carry a purse. But, that is just what I take away or read into their acts and appearances. Who knows? I am human and I have been wrong before, it is a good thing to know that I can admit it 

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To summarize....I guess what Garbage and I are trying to understand it why some women, who happen to be lesbians, feel that they have to turn in their makeup and 'personal appearance' card to obtain and carry the "I like women" card. Well, at least that is what I wonder (hint, hint, the point of my org'l entry).

I don't understand how you are associating a narrow version of 'femininity' (i.e. makeup, etc.) with'good hygiene'. I also don't understand why you feel there must be some form of essentialized womanhood that is understandable and identifiable i.e., if you wear makeup, you are a 'real' woman, and if you don't, are a bit too tomboyish (what, play sports? Don't wear makeup?) then you are somehow not a 'real' woman and are 'acting like a boy'. And I also don't see why this is of so much concern. Suddenly, you gotta wear makeup and carry a purse, or else you give a bad name to the lesbian community?!??! Wow, I guess I've lost my 'lesbian' card.

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It almost seems like they are making the statement to other females, that you aren't truly a lesbian if you wear eyeshadow and carry a purse. But, that is just what I take away or read into their acts and appearances. Who knows? I am human and I have been wrong before, it is a good thing to know that I can admit it 

Well, I disagree. Femme dykes exist in multitudes in the lesbian community (ever heard of lipstick lesbians?) Various gender expressions such as Femme queer identity is what makes the community sooo diverse. I guess i'm at a loss trying to figure out what community you hang in. Queer femme identity is again, sooo subversive - folks think that if you are femme you MUST be straight (especially since our patriarchal society believes that women only 'dress up' to please men) and femme folks fuck up those notions. Not to mention that femme isn't something only women can be.

I really really believe that it is in our best interest NOT to buy into those really really narrow and rigid understandings of womanhood especially for those of us who are interested in 'queering' desire and sexual identities. Or maybe folks just wanna buy into the status quo...???

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Ok. I just re-read your first post.. and again, I really don't know what you want folks to say.

I guess the answer to your question is that some folks (regardless of their sexuality) are just nasty and have horrible hygiene.

The end.

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Ok. I just re-read your first post.. and again, I really don't know what you want folks to say.

I guess the answer to your question is that some folks (regardless of their sexuality) are just nasty and have horrible hygiene.

The end.

Ok, once again. NOT talking about hygiene in the general sense and someone needs to seek other ways to let whatever anger from their life off in another venue b/c I will not accept it. I am NOT saying that you HAVE to wear makeup, actually I was talking from the OTHER perspective of why they tend not to and would ignore women who do. JEEZ, it is called READING. This is the problem with boards, you ask a simple question that you truly don't understand or would like to know more about, and the cliques, or rogues looking for a cause to standup for, jump all over you.

Honey, I don't know who's entry your read, but it appearently wasn't mine. You need to seek some help about those angerment issues. Oh, and if you don't have to wear makeup to be a woman (which I never said you did), you don't have to be angry to be a lesbian either.

PS. In fact, I found your very first reply most informative, clear, and not hateful of all. I truly enjoyed your very first reply, but now these replies just seem (to me) to be a soapbox with a potential to fall.

PPS. Sorry I quoted the wrong entry by you, I didn't mean to get the last one, I meant to quote the first one in line.

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Ok, once again. NOT talking about hygiene in the general sense and someone needs to seek other ways to let whatever anger from their life off in another venue b/c I will not accept it. I am NOT saying that you HAVE to wear makeup, actually I was talking from the OTHER perspective of why they tend not to and would ignore women who do. JEEZ, it is called READING.

Ooo the "you are angry" response. Please. If you can't deal with confrontation, don't post questions that folks don't understand because they are UNCLEAR. The only person who you believed to have understood your question added to it by stating that all butches are basically men. And you backed her up by quoting her and 'summarizing' her. So please, don't pull the "you can't read" response after two folks tried to respond to what they thought you were trying to say.

Who are "they"? Women who don't wear makeup? I don't even believe that this is a generalizeable situation (i.e. all women who don't wear makeup believe that all women who do are not 'real' lesbians). I guess I don't understand your question, because as I see it, dykes who do and don't wear makeup are all very much a part of the lesbian community. If the question was perhaps about femme invisibility or invalidation, maybe you could have started up a good conversation. But again, what you did say was that lesbians who don't wash their hair or something were gross, and then you generalized saying that many of this 'ilk' tend to ignore the ones who do wash their hair. Maybe it was because those particular women are stupid?

This is the problem with boards, you ask a simple question that you truly don't understand or would like to know more about, and the cliques, or rogues looking for a cause to standup for, jump all over you.

Hahahaha..cliques and rogues and a 'cause'. Yah, my cause is ANTI-OPPRESSION. I'm sorry that you think it isn't worthy to deal with people who so blatantly call women "men" because they don't fit a normative gender stereotype. Remeber, this IS a messageboard. You think you can read tone, but you really really can't sometimes.

Honey, I don't know who's entry your read, but it appearently wasn't mine. You need to seek some help about those angerment issues. Oh, and if you don't have to wear makeup to be a woman (which I never said you did), you don't have to be angry to be a lesbian either.

I'm sorry. Did you just pull the anger thing again? How laughable. I'm just really tired of generalizations about women, especially dykes, seeing as society is already finding ways to marginalize us. Like it is fun to be marginalized by members of our own community. But of course, I shouldn't be surprised. I'm a black gender queer dyke who knows what marginalization is all about...

I guess what Garbage and I are trying to understand it why some women, who happen to be lesbians, feel that they have to turn in their makeup and 'personal appearance' card to obtain and carry the "I like women" card

Who cares if they turn in their makeup card? What does personal appearance have to do with sexuality? Why does it matter? Do you feel it invalidates your sexual identity? That would be a place to start..perhaps asking, why should it (invalidate your sexuality?)

PS. In fact, I found your very first reply most informative, clear, and not hateful of all. I truly enjoyed your very first reply, but now these replies just seem (to me) to be a soapbox with a potential to fall.

?? That makes no sense. My "soapbox" is to figure out what you both were saying. Again, you quoted, summarized and backed up garbage7 when she stated that all butches are basically men. I didn't see you questioning her rationale, I saw you BACKING HER UP, and in essence, agreeing with her. You can understand, then, why I "misunderstood" and thought that you also believed that all butches were men and are therefore not really women. My first response, as my second response, as this last one is all to wonder what point you are trying to make. What? That lesbians should up their appearance (generally)? That all lesbians have to get along? That makeup is the golden measurement of friendliness, of dykeliness?

I also find it interesting that I'm the hateful one, but garbage7 isn't. Interesting.

Femme invisibility is definitely something we CAN discuss, just like butch marginality as well as all those folks who don't ascribe to those labels. What makes one a lesbian? How about passing privilege? How femmes can often go without being outed, whereas for some women, 'lesbian' is read off their body? Now that brings up the idea of femme invisibility in queer communities, because many do believe that they aren't "really" queer.

Oh forget it. I'll just post this as a separate topic, cuz I'm not even sure this was what you wanted to talk about in the first place.

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Ok, once again. NOT talking about hygiene in the general sense and someone needs to seek other ways to let whatever anger from their life off in another venue b/c I will not accept it. I am NOT saying that you HAVE to wear makeup, actually I was talking from the OTHER perspective of why they tend not to and would ignore women who do. JEEZ, it is called READING.

Ooo the "you are angry" response. Please. If you can't deal with confrontation, don't post questions that folks don't understand because they are UNCLEAR. The only person who you believed to have understood your question added to it by stating that all butches are basically men. And you backed her up by quoting her and 'summarizing' her. So please, don't pull the "you can't read" response after two folks tried to respond to what they thought you were trying to say.

Who are "they"? Women who don't wear makeup? I don't even believe that this is a generalizeable situation (i.e. all women who don't wear makeup believe that all women who do are not 'real' lesbians). I guess I don't understand your question, because as I see it, dykes who do and don't wear makeup are all very much a part of the lesbian community. If the question was perhaps about femme invisibility or invalidation, maybe you could have started up a good conversation. But again, what you did say was that lesbians who don't wash their hair or something were gross, and then you generalized saying that many of this 'ilk' tend to ignore the ones who do wash their hair. Maybe it was because those particular women are stupid?

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This is the problem with boards, you ask a simple question that you truly don't understand or would like to know more about, and the cliques, or rogues looking for a cause to standup for, jump all over you.

Hahahaha..cliques and rogues and a 'cause'. Yah, my cause is ANTI-OPPRESSION. I'm sorry that you think it isn't worthy to deal with people who so blatantly call women "men" because they don't fit a normative gender stereotype. Remeber, this IS a messageboard. You think you can read tone, but you really really can't sometimes.

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Honey, I don't know who's entry your read, but it appearently wasn't mine. You need to seek some help about those angerment issues. Oh, and if you don't have to wear makeup to be a woman (which I never said you did), you don't have to be angry to be a lesbian either.

I'm sorry. Did you just pull the anger thing again? How laughable. I'm just really tired of generalizations about women, especially dykes, seeing as society is already finding ways to marginalize us. Like it is fun to be marginalized by members of our own community. But of course, I shouldn't be surprised. I'm a black gender queer dyke who knows what marginalization is all about...

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I guess what Garbage and I are trying to understand it why some women, who happen to be lesbians, feel that they have to turn in their makeup and 'personal appearance' card to obtain and carry the "I like women" card

Who cares if they turn in their makeup card? What does personal appearance have to do with sexuality? Why does it matter? Do you feel it invalidates your sexual identity? That would be a place to start..perhaps asking, why should it (invalidate your sexuality?)

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PS. In fact, I found your very first reply most informative, clear, and not hateful of all. I truly enjoyed your very first reply, but now these replies just seem (to me) to be a soapbox with a potential to fall.

?? That makes no sense. My "soapbox" is to figure out what you both were saying. Again, you quoted, summarized and backed up garbage7 when she stated that all butches are basically men. I didn't see you questioning her rationale, I saw you BACKING HER UP, and in essence, agreeing with her. You can understand, then, why I "misunderstood" and thought that you also believed that all butches were men and are therefore not really women. My first response, as my second response, as this last one is all to wonder what point you are trying to make. What? That lesbians should up their appearance (generally)? That all lesbians have to get along? That makeup is the golden measurement of friendliness, of dykeliness?

I also find it interesting that I'm the hateful one, but garbage7 isn't. Interesting.

Femme invisibility is definitely something we CAN discuss, just like butch marginality as well as all those folks who don't ascribe to those labels. What makes one a lesbian? How about passing privilege? How femmes can often go without being outed, whereas for some women, 'lesbian' is read off their body? Now that brings up the idea of femme invisibility in queer communities, because many do believe that they aren't "really" queer.

Oh forget it. I'll just post this as a separate topic, cuz I'm not even sure this was what you wanted to talk about in the first place.

If you loved the "you are angry" response, you'll drool over this one....Take some Midol and get laid 

Zami writes: " I'm a black gender queer dyke who knows what marginalization is all about..."

Pulling out the race card so soon? But we have only begun to discuss our topic. Shocker!

That is right, I am "the man" (in every sense of the word I guess becuase my skin happens to be white), trying to keep you butch-typed women down. I totally stated that in my first entry (or in any entry I have ever posted in my life). I completely, fully, plainly stated that all butch-typed women must be driven from our nation. I am a total racist, sexist, biased, (and whatever else) bigot that is out for anyone who doesn't look and act exactly like me. To hell with anyone who doesn't look exactly like me!

Now that we have all enjoyed our play in the world of fantasy in Zami's mind, one to more important points...

First off, DON'T you EVER tell me whom I do and do not support. Because I can READ between LONG LINES doesn't mean I call all butches men. If you had read my initial entry carefully (as I had asked you kindly to do), you would have seen that I addressed butch women and their appearances, or attempts of keeping their appearances, in a VERY respectful way. I never said ANYTHING degrading about butch women. You are short sighted, among other things, to even generalize that type of judgement on me. Funny, you are the one claiming I generalized....oh, how the pots loves to call that kettle black.

Secondly, since I don't want to make my posts like a 500 page thesis, yes I will write short-hand and put in "they", "them", "we", or whatever gets my SIMPLE point across. If you are looking for extreme detail to where I identify each individual that I talk about by DNA coding, you are looking in the wrong place. I don't have time for that.

Thirdly, you read alot into what I wrote, or didn't write. You are the type of individual that likes to throw your weight around and be noticed. Have another cookie, people read your long winded post. Now, try being nice. I actually thought that my initial post was as gentle and as respectful as I could write while getting my point across that I was shocked by certain behaviors. I try to be mindful of my words so that they do not purposefully hurt or harm others. You, on the other hand, may have an issue with that. I just want to say that being a butch doesn't mean being a bullie.

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Someone's been called a bitch too many times in life and now we are all in for it LOL. Fear her now.

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If you loved the "you are angry" response, you'll drool over this one....Take some Midol and get laid 

 

You know you've got a very solid argument when you have to resort to name calling.

And I'd really appreciate if you didn't use really fucked up sexist and homophobic slurs to talk about me.

And oh, the generalizaitons about butches are always really nice. Great lesbian friendly community!

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If you loved the "you are angry" response, you'll drool over this one....Take some Midol and get laid 

 

You know you've got a very solid argument when you have to resort to name calling.

And I'd really appreciate if you didn't use really fucked up sexist and homophobic slurs to talk about me.

And oh, the generalizaitons about butches are always really nice. Great lesbian friendly community!

Right again. Man, you are so consistantly right, I WAS the one assuming and calling names from the get-go. Nice to know I have you to point out "my" mistakes. Read over your own passes before you critique others.

TO ALL OTHERS...can someone PLEASE tell me what generalizations I was making towards butch women at any point in my entries? Please! Seriously, I NEVER said A THING about butch women other than I when I stated that I WASN'T talking about their kind in my first entry. Zami needs to let whatever that is clouding her mind time to disperse and then she needs to read my statement again.

PS. If you really hate homophobic slurs, you really shouldn't have used the word "dyke" in describing yourself, whether for point or for pain. Personally I found your entry with that word use offensive and I am sure I am not the only one. I, personally, never use that word and I don't like it when women either use it to describe themselves or each other. I dislike it even more when someone assumes that I think or use it towards them. I may call you what you are or present yourself to be; mean, disrespectful, bitchy, hateful, or other such names but I will NEVER use 'that' word towards you or anyone else...it is like using the 'N' word. This is a forum for the female gay community, I feel that such homo slurs are uncalled for.

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I was the one talking about butchy women and the fact that SOME lesbians feel the need to dress down or look like men. I am sorry that you Zami are so defensive of this, clearly there must be a reason for it. I am sorry that I caused all this disention between you and EmberPhase. I really just was making a point out of MY observations and trying to be a bit sarcastic while at it. I wasn't trying to get your "boxers" all in a twist, so chill out. Props also on the big words, they really scare the shit out of me....

And to say that I am new at this, well that's very observant of you. However, I have known I was a lesbian since I was 5. So the only NEW part of this is the fact that I joined this board and began vocally admitting it when asked.

Gosh will I really be excommunicated from the kingdom of Lesbianism? I didn't realize there were rules and regulations. Please let me know where I can get the holy handbook of all things lesbian so I can find my redemption once again and ask only the RIGHT questions.

So that being said can't we all just get along?

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Well I guess I am going to piss some people off, but I agree with Ember and Garbage. I find that women who look like the traditional stereotypical attractive woman are what I like. I completely don't understand why women would want to look like those did. I mean, have whatever body you want, but do try to look somewhat pleasant.

Now, I am not saying 'All lesbians should be this way.' I am saying this is what I understand in my apparently feeble little mind. I like girls. If a chick looks like a boy, I'm not interested. It is not intentional, it is simply my instinctual preference. If you love mint ice cream you love mint ice cream. You can't just change things like that. Anyway, I am straying from the point.

I can barely remember the original point of this thread, but I think what we are trying to say is at least care about your looks. It isn't a butch vs. femme thing. Everyone should brush their hair. Everyone should wear clothes that fit them. It shows that you respect yourself. I don't care if you are ugly, or fat, or look masculine. I'm just saying you need to take care of yourself.

Zami, you are offended so easily! We don't understand what other people think, and you don't understand what we think. Don't get all up and righteous about it, be nice and explain. This is supposed to be a place to discuss things nicely.

Well, I am headed to the bar where people of all categories and 'labels' throw down their differences and have fun together.

Filly

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Interesting "conversation". . . Here's my two cents - 'cause, ya know it's like a forum and that's the point! 

I am reading Ember's original comment as purposefully instigative. (Is that a word, instigative?) There's certainly a prejudice towards butch women just as there is one towards femme women and it's not just one type making the assumptions about the other. She posed a question that wasn't PC, but it started a lively thread.

Zami makes excellent and thoughtful comments about the continuum of gender and took Ember's initial query to an intellectual level. (Zami - did you continue this thead somewhere else as mentioned? I didn't find it yet.)

It seems like there may be two discussions going on here: one wanting to get a good rant on, and one wanting to educate on a level that isn't being appreciated by the audience.

The short of it is, to me (note the "I" statements) that there are preferences and preferences. We all have them to one degree or another (yeah, Filly, kinda like mint ice cream). What's not cool - and it's just my opinion as I hold free speech in high regard - is pissing on someone else's like of mint ice cream or thinking that you are more correcter for liking it, or not liking it, or thinking that it should have more or less mint in it. You've got a place to say it, but don't get surprised if people take issue with it.

- A. Dyke. (BTW I think it's a totally different thing when we call ourselves dyke than when some redneck yells it at us. Like the use of queer or bitch or liberal. Be it. Own it. Tell it.)

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Iam reading Ember's original comment as purposefully instigative. (Is that a word, instigative?) There's certainly a prejudice towards butch women just as there is one towards femme women and it's not just one type making the assumptions about the other. She posed a question that wasn't PC, but it started a lively thread.

Zami makes excellent and thoughtful comments about the continuum of gender and took Ember's initial query to an intellectual level. (Zami - did you continue this thead somewhere else as mentioned? I didn't find it yet.)

Thank you for your two cents Filly and F.E. Although, F.E. I don't take offense to your comments, but I don't see where my entry wasn't PC (I didn't use degrading language or images). But then again, I feel that everyone is trying to be so PC these days that you aren't sure if you can call a girl a girl without stepping on some toes. If you knew me outside of my postings, you would read my posting much differently. They are correct that the written word is often mistake of things that it is not.

It seems like there may be two discussions going on here: one wanting to get a good rant on, and one wanting to educate on a level that isn't being appreciated by the audience.

The short of it is, to me (note the "I" statements) that there are preferences and preferences. We all have them to one degree or another (yeah, Filly, kinda like mint ice cream). What's not cool - and it's just my opinion as I hold free speech in high regard - is pissing on someone else's like of mint ice cream or thinking that you are more correcter for liking it, or not liking it, or thinking that it should have more or less mint in it. You've got a place to say it, but don't get surprised if people take issue with it.

As for the point of the post, I am still not sure anyone (even those appearing to "agree" with me) got my question. That is ok, I think on so many subjects that it is hard for me to even keep thoughts separated. I have to say an apologize for all the ruckus that this brought on, but questions are just my nature. I am a biological sciences major and my HOBBIES are things like genetics, social behaviors, reproduction, diseases history; basically anything in the medical field tends to grab my attention and get my brain started. I wonder about a lot of social behaviors, constantly. This particular that I posted came up because an actual representation of why I was intrigued by the behavior actually walked into my 2nd job and literally had their lovers' spat inches from me in a crowd restaurant. Sorry, it just intrigued me.

- A. Dyke. (BTW I think it's a totally different thing when we call ourselves dyke than when some redneck yells it at us. Like the use of queer or bitch or liberal. Be it. Own it. Tell it.)

My apologies, I hope you can understand my meaning here, but I would have to disagree with you on this statement. To me it is not different members of the African-American community calling each other the 'N' word as a point of greeting or association. I have heard many social leaders in that community speak out against such usage, so I know that my thoughts are not alone on this topic.

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zami said:
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To summarize....I guess what Garbage and I are trying to understand it why some women, who happen to be lesbians, feel that they have to turn in their makeup and 'personal appearance' card to obtain and carry the "I like women" card. Well, at least that is what I wonder (hint, hint, the point of my org'l entry).

I don't understand how you are associating a narrow version of 'femininity' (i.e. makeup, etc.) with'good hygiene'. I also don't understand why you feel there must be some form of essentialized womanhood that is understandable and identifiable i.e., if you wear makeup, you are a 'real' woman, and if you don't, are a bit too tomboyish (what, play sports? Don't wear makeup?) then you are somehow not a 'real' woman and are 'acting like a boy'. And I also don't see why this is of so much concern. Suddenly, you gotta wear makeup and carry a purse, or else you give a bad name to the lesbian community?!??! Wow, I guess I've lost my 'lesbian' card.

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It almost seems like they are making the statement to other females, that you aren't truly a lesbian if you wear eyeshadow and carry a purse. But, that is just what I take away or read into their acts and appearances. Who knows? I am human and I have been wrong before, it is a good thing to know that I can admit it 

I read over your question and response to these two women. And in my opinion, and remember: Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. But in MY opinion *lol* it's all irrelevant. I mean, I can see your curiousity and admittedly I wonder why women do appear as rather masculine. Are they struggling with their own sexual identity? But is that to say that we all have to look like a woman in the "femme" sense? It's all very confusing so what I do is look at what I like and I don't question anything else, it just is what it is. You are comfortable with what you look like and how you present yourself to society, as these other women are also, so lets all just be happy with that and go about living. You don't have to be sexually attracted to these women, nor they to you, there are no hard and fast rules in life, always choose what's best for you. To be or not to be? That is the question. 

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nicolevf said:
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To summarize....I guess what Garbage and I are trying to understand it why some women, who happen to be lesbians, feel that they have to turn in their makeup and 'personal appearance' card to obtain and carry the "I like women" card. Well, at least that is what I wonder (hint, hint, the point of my org'l entry).

I

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don't understand how you are associating a narrow version of 'femininity' (i.e. makeup, etc.) with'good hygiene'. I also don't understand why you feel there must be some form of essentialized womanhood that is understandable and identifiable i.e., if you wear makeup, you are a 'real' woman, and if you don't, are a bit too tomboyish (what, play sports? Don't wear makeup?) then you are somehow not a 'real' woman and are 'acting like a boy'. And I also don't see why this is of so much concern. Suddenly, you gotta wear makeup and carry a purse, or else you give a bad name to the lesbian community?!??! Wow, I guess I've lost my 'lesbian' card.

Yeah, I can see you didn't read my entry or read it thoroughly enough. If you did, you would have seen my statement that I don't wear makeup everyday either (What happen to the days where they taught thorough reading in school?). Just because I know how to look good for a pic, doesn't mean I live my life in eyeshadow and blush.

Actually, it really was NEVER even a point of their not wearing makeup. It was a point of too many "wrongs" (in the fashion and persentation sense) and not enough "rights". I hate using those words but I think the general way in which that phrase is used is what I am going for.

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It almost seems like they are making the statement to other females, that you aren't truly a lesbian if you wear eyeshadow and carry a purse. But, that is just what I take away or read into their acts and appearances. Who knows? I am human and I have been wrong before, it is a good thing to know that I can admit it 
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I read over your question and response to these two women. And in my opinion, and remember: Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. But in MY opinion *lol* it's all irrelevant. I mean, I can see your curiousity and admittedly I wonder why women do appear as rather masculine. Are they struggling with their own sexual identity? But is that to say that we all have to look like a woman in the "femme" sense? It's all very confusing so what I do is look at what I like and I don't question anything else, it just is what it is. You are comfortable with what you look like and how you present yourself to society, as these other women are also, so lets all just be happy with that and go about living. You don't have to be sexually attracted to these women, nor they to you, there are no hard and fast rules in life, always choose what's best for you. To be or not to be? That is the question. 

How can one question be misread so much?  I never said that I wanted to be attracted to these women. I never said if they had eyeliner on that I would have been attracted to them. I never said that their presentation was too butch or not enough femme (it is more about being tidy). I never said anything about having to be femme, or none of that. Like I said, I think it is a southern thing where you are taught to make yourself presentable in public. I guess I was just raised differently. (For those who don't read throughly, presentable doesn't mean supporting Max Factor or Clinque).

Now with that said, I like your statements anyway (even though they don't directlyt deal with what I questioned). I can see where you have curiosity about a woman's persona or personality (or struggle there of) based on her appearance. That is also something I have let my mind wonder on at times, just like I did with my org'l question here (which had nothing to do with their struggle of sexuality). I think you have the same tendencies I do and I thank you for sharing your intrigues and inquires with me. It is good to know that I am not alone and other minds out there think on all kinds of crazy planes like mine. 

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Okay, I see what you're saying 

I didn't misread what you said, I started writing my own questions and thoughts...it happens. In regards to tidiness, well it does relate to presentation. That was my way of putting it. You know to be honest, I forget what the whole bloody topic was about 

I can relate to what your thoughts are as I have wondered the same at times in my life, but in saying that I still think it doesn't matter but for the sake of discussion well...it was obviously a good topic to bring up because look at the response, women have either jumped on their high horse or agreed with you, it's all good. Many of us don't admit what we are thinking or feeling, and you shared your thoughts honestly and openly, that is to be commended. There is no "right" or "wrong", it's something we humans created. Keep smiling and keep being honest to yourself darlin 

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Okay, I see what you're saying 

I didn't misread what you said, I started writing my own questions and thoughts...it happens. In regards to tidiness, well it does relate to presentation. That was my way of putting it. You know to be honest, I forget what the whole bloody topic was about 

I can relate to what your thoughts are as I have wondered the same at times in my life, but in saying that I still think it doesn't matter but for the sake of discussion well...it was obviously a good topic to bring up because look at the response, women have either jumped on their high horse or agreed with you, it's all good. Many of us don't admit what we are thinking or feeling, and you shared your thoughts honestly and openly, that is to be commended. There is no "right" or "wrong", it's something we humans created. Keep smiling and keep being honest to yourself darlin 

As you can tell, honest is all I know how to be  (and as you truthfully put it, maybe too honest for some).

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