Guest EmberPhase

people who don't like the way other people look in public

73 posts in this topic

Why butch women dress and act the way they do is simple...it is what they ...and who they are. they didn't ask to be that way....and many don't choose to be..they have no choice. (I am aware that some DO chose to dress and act that way...but they never quite seem to make it. that's probably a good thing.)

All I know that I tried very hard, when I was young...to dress and act "femme"...it just didn't work for me. I just look like a very bad drag queen in dress and makeup....Not even that...I look like a straight man who made very little effort to look female. I learned to be who I am...and be happy with it. Fortunately for me, femme identified lesbians seem to be happy with it as well.

there is a study (I forget by whom...it's out there on the net) that calims all butch women are born with a longer ring finger than indes finger. the study says the occurence of butch women has something to do with invetro acidity...or some such stuff. I don't knw bout all that. I only know that it isn't necessary to understand the whole world..you'll go nuts tryin.

If it's any consolation to ya..I don't understand ANY women! LOL

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Now to start out, this is just my opinion and my own personal wonderings. I would ask that no one take offense to it, I simply do not understand the reason behind my following statement/inquiry. It is something that I have often thought on, long and hard, when I have encountered the following type of people. Maybe someone out there, even ones like the following, could help enlighten me. Enlightenment is my goal.

Okay, up front, no offense taken by you, Ember. The following reply is my personal opinion, not meant to offend anyone.

 

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Ok, here is my wondering . . . *SNIP* They were very homely looking, no makeup what so ever, and their clothing wasn't flattering their frames in the least. The taller one with the longer hair, her hair was so limp that wet noodles would have had more body and bounce. Now, my wondering is, why do some lesbians feel this is the way to look?

First, I'd like to point out that there are plenty of people I've seen in the South of, presumably, any identification who resemble this general description. Men and women, by whatever definitions are used for those terms, have been in my immediate vicinity who look this way. Why do they look this way? *shrug* Given that you didn't mention this particular couple as regulars to wherever you work, I would assume that they may not always look this way. Maybe they were in the middle of physical labour when you saw them; maybe they needed to stop in for something real quick and didn't care how people saw them for the five minutes they were out of the house. Who knows? I've been guilty of going up the street to the local gas station at three in the morning in my pee-jays for cigarettes without caring what anyone else thought. Or maybe they're of limited means and have to take what they can get. Having been homeless before, I can tell you that when you're worried about where you'll be sleeping and getting your next meal from, your appearance tends to occupy a lower priority. On a related note, it also falls into the "beggars can't be choosers" category if you're limited to shopping at the GoodWill.

If I'm reading you right, though, you're not talking about the isolated incident of not giving a crap -- you're talking about not seeming to give a crap about appearance in general. I'm taking for granted that you're also talking about people who aren't in a truly bad place with very limited means.

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Now, don't get me wrong. I don't wear makeup everyday and I don't dress to the 9's everyday, but if I look in the mirror and saw in myself what I saw in them, I would have tried something. It could have, and must likely would have, been a minimal attempt at polishing my appearance, but I would have attempted it. *SNIP* It is almost like, and forgive my ignorance on the topic, they "refuse" to attempt to polish their appearance.

Well, maybe some people who look this way are refusing to polish their appearance. Maybe they have a low self-esteem or negative body image and think that efforts to polish up will be futile (personal experience on this one -- vicious cycle, that). Maybe they've looked a certain way for so long that trying anything different is outside their comfort zone. Or maybe they are completely emotionally healthy and genuinely don't think they need any enhancement.

I don't think there's any cut-and-dry answer to your query, Ember. There are just too many variable among individuals to go "*thwap* Here's your answer". 

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I guess my wondering is why some lesbians have this tendency whenit comes to their personal appearance and if it is really a helper or a henderance to their finding someone to be with. I am not really referring to the "butch" look per-say. I have seen several butch-typed women that still seemed like they looked in the mirror that morning to make sure their appearance was one that would please another's eye.

As with the reasons for appearance, whether said appearance helps or hinders would be up to each individual, regardless of sexual orientation. *shrug*

I understand you're not talking about butches in general. Again, if I'm reading you correctly, you're talking about people who seem to give no thought to their appearance whatsoever. As I said earlier, there are any number of reasons for this, and they're all based on the individual.

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If you think you have any thoughts, comments, explanations, or whatever, please feel free to enlighten me. I have thought on it many times in my life and I have never really seemed to obtain an answer from my own musings.

I hope my post has been of some help to you, however vague that help might have been. 

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Hi amber...obviously this is a very sensitive subject...lmao...and in my opinion is very important...it seems that there are some among the lesbian community who are very offended by any lesbian labeling themselves as "butch".....and it is I am sure because of a seemingly parallel with hetero men that "butch " women SEEM to identify with....but as with anything it takes a closer look...and it deserves a closer look....there are some women who do feel much more masculine...I definantly do...I am not someone who feels comfortable with makeup and heels....lmao in fact all my friends would laugh at the thought of this....I think u would agree that there are women who are more masculine than some women...this does not make them men..nor does it mean they WANT to BE MEN...and simply because u are not attracted obviously to women who identify as butch...doesnt mean they are not lesbian...nor does it mean they dont deserve respect as being apart of the community....I, speaking for myself....love women...not men...I, speaking as a butch...have no desire to be a man,...I , speaking for myself, do express myself much more comfortably in a masculine aggressive way....it is natural...I could not ever be femme in the traditional sense at all.....

the scenario that u described....I think was simply about two ppl who u found wholely unattractive and repulsive in all respects....this is not the whole of the butch-femme world.....so please do be careful with the generalizations and judgements here....I respect ur honesty...I respect ur question and I respect the fact that the butch lesbian is not what u are attracted to or invision as apart of ur lesbian experience....pls take the time to see the ppl....and see that basically when it all gets down to it....we are all human....no matter what our sexual preference or gender may be..

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but these women appalled me physically (reminder, just a personal opinion/attraction). They were very homely looking, no makeup what so ever, and their clothing wasn't flattering their frames in the least. The taller one with the longer hair, her hair was so limp that wet noodles would have had more body and bounce. Now, my wondering is, why do some lesbians feel this is the way to look?

I have read almost all this thread...man. It really seems its hard for you even begin to really understand where Zami is coming from. Most likely because you two are total opposites. I think Zami's words are great! It was really nice to hear a woman speaking up like that...I don't hear it often at all. And I really dig what she had to say. To EmberPhase...you know some people just don't give a shit about keeping up with the damn beauty myth. I cannot believe you used the word "appalled" I could almost see you recoiling in disgust or something. You have to understand not all women dig the whole thing about wearing make up and heels and Dooney and Burke purses and things of that sort. And just because some women don't follow those 'rules' that have been applied in society does not make them any less of women. Maybe some women don't want to make themselves up to be 'beautiful' for everyone. Maybe they are cool with themselves as they are. You know honestly...I have to say, you sound like a stereotypical man. Expecting women to fit into this image or that. Put down the InStyle and Cosmo and Vogue...and realize some women don't need all that to feel like a woman. I am not dressing for society I am dressing for me.

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I personally don't understand why women who say they don't want to be with men insist on dressing like them. While I think anyone can do/be whatever feels best for them - and I don't put them down for it - I still don't quite understand that dynamic myself. If I wanted a man or a masculine-looking person, I'd get a man. But I am attracted to women .... women who LOOK like women. Oh, and the ones that look like they've not taken a bath in a week - UGH. That simply smacks of laziness and inattention to their looks or a decided lack of concern about how they present themselves. As one who takes pride in her appearance, that's something I can't get, either, but how they expect to attract someone looking like that is beyond me.

Shutting up now. Just my two cents' worth!  - Lara

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I guess what is confusing to me about what your saying boudicca is that women who dress like men are still women. Many people believe that gender is completely socially constructed and even most feminists who don't beleive that think that women can still be women and wear whatever they want.

I have something different on the topic that I want to ask. I am a butch woman and often I get really excited about wearing a new butch outfit out and sometimes other lesbians look at me like I'm shallow or posing. I'm just wearing what I like and what seems to attract women who like butches. I mean if I thought a Fonzy haircut would attract more women, I would get one.

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"I have something different on the topic that I want to ask. I am a butch woman and often I get really excited about wearing a new butch outfit out and sometimes other lesbians look at me like I'm shallow or posing. I'm just wearing what I like and what seems to attract women who like butches. I mean if I thought a Fonzy haircut would attract more women, I would get one."

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it! If you dig what you're wearing, then someone else will, too! You'll feel comfortable because you're happy in what you have on. That's the best fashion statement! 

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very true, thank you so much

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Something I have learned this year is to say to myself, when i find myself judging someone on their appearence, "they are blameless for their appearance"

Perhaps the ladies discussed in the very very first post were having a particularly bad day (as evidenced by their behavior) and could care less about their outward appearance as they had other things to think about??

although I must say... the whole looking like a "man" thing does make me wonder also... or perhaps thats just the way I've been brought up? I personally am a woman who likes women who look like women! (again, the whole mint ice-cream thing - which I love by the way) and I guess, seeing as Ive not had a lot of experience "looking for" a partner - mine just fell into my lap, so to speak - im probably talking through my rather inexperienced hat - but just my opinion anyways!... 

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I am interested in this topic because someone once asked me what I wanted in a woman, and I told her the same thing men dol A beautiful, sexy woman. I told her that I wanted to date the hottest chick in the room. She laughed for a minute and then asked why there are so many women who look like guys then that are lesbians and who date women. I have no answer to that, all I can say is "to each her own." Who am I to judge anyone and their life choices. Just because I may not want a woman who is butched out doesn't mean someone out there doesn't. I just don't want to be put down by other lesbians because I do look feminine and date feminine. That seems to be the real problem here ladies, we already know how the rest of the world feels about us, but to fight amongst ourselves like this? Please "live and let live" lets mind our own business and move on.

CA

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Heres the deal with gender expression and labels as I understand it... We live in a society that recognizes 2 genders. However, there have been and are still remnants of cultures that recognize up to 5 genders. Whoa, thats right 5 genders. born male, expresses male (work choices, clothes etc.); born male, expresses female; born female, expresses female; born female, expresses male; and intersexed, those born a biological combination of male and female. From what I understand, it looks as though in the cultures where more genders were culturally accepted, there wasn't any surgical altering of the genitals by anyone. However, in more rigid cultures, such as India or the USA, transgendered people experience more cultural alienation and oppression and are more likely to surgically alter themselves to fit into a rigid 2 gender system.

Why do we need labels...one could think of it as language. The more language we have for our experience, the more complex our experience is...everybody knows the analogy of the inuits having some huge amount of words to describe snow. How about if we think up lotsa words for sex and gender and stop being freaked out about every experience that is different from our own.

ie., there were women flirting and talking about femme on femme action in the flirting forum and I figured out that they all weren't about a butch watching, so I started a femme on butch flirting board. There is enough room for all of us, I just wish people weren't so derogatory in their comments.

From one dirty bulldagger.....

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 I must say that I was an admirer of Margaret Mead for more than her "looks" and I really can't say what it is that exactly "triggers" things for me sexually; as I have been drawn to many types of women/wimmin in my life. I do know that INTELLIGENCE is a Huge turn-on for me; being able to make me laugh, knowing that she's my Everything; but that not everything is about her; well just being one helluva lover; attentive, satisfying, and willing to expirement are all big pluses. Sure sometimes I date the "hottest chick in the room"; sometimes deep inside they have the most insecurities though. I've been equally as happy with some incredibly strong and very "Butchy"wimmin; but all of them were exceptionally fastidious; a REQUIREMENT to be my lover. I guess I really took that "Cleanliness is next to Godliness" thingee personally. 

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The No-No

I must say I am really disappointed with the propensity of "why do butches want to look like men" attitude on this board. Presumably we are all lesbians here, who have at least some degree of involvement in the gay community. Butch-femme has been around for a very long time, and it is not going anywhere. There is a considerable percentage of the lesbian community that identify in this manner.

In defense of our glorious butch gals

That being said - butches are not trying to be men, they are trying to carve out an existence that validates who they are, how they feel comfortable and who they are attracted to, ditto for the femmes.

My own misunderstandings

As a card-carrying femme, I will be really honest with you, I have absolutely no idea why other lesbians identify as androgynous. To me this is the most un-sexy look I have ever seen. Same haircut, same taste in clothes, everything 100% 50/50. How freaking boring can you get! But, I would never try to postulate some glibe platitude about their reason for being or identifying the way they do. It takes all kinds, ladies.

Sexxxxy

I have no issue with the androgynous types out there, I just don't understand how any can find this sexy. As a femme, who is attracted to Butches, my answer to you all asking how any lesbian can find that sexy is this: its exciting, its knees like butter, passionate, over-the-top energy, that collides and explodes.

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Oh yeah, so this is my first post to the forums. Woo. I've read just about everything here in the span of a couple of hours straight and it was quite an interesting read. I've had the urge to comment multiple times, though as suspected, the topic drove off into different directions near the recent times.. so I'll leave those be.

Something someone did say that caught my attention near the very beginning, which has a personal attention catching signifigance to me, is the question:

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aren't two butchy chicks just 2 gay guys?

I'll tell ya, about 5% of my reaction was offense.. and the other 95% had to crack up. See, I'm sorta a baby dyke - 21 years old, sexually honest to myself for the most recent 3 years outta that. Before I realized I was gay... hell, before I knew what 'lesbian' meant (grew up in the countryside of a little island), I was damn girly! I flirted with everything for attention, gave great big beaming smiles and dressed like a slutty chirchgirl through the chubby portion of my teen years.

Before I was instructed by my generous peers on how to be boycrazy and flaunt my chub-boobies, I spent my childhood competing with my older brother on the trampoline, searching for the best bank of mud in the river to play in and running all over the triangle roofs of our multiple houses. I had a loud voice and a huge personality and something my grandfather called 'spunk'.

Now, once I derailed into the feminine world of teenage princess out there in the middle of nowhere, destined to be a "Diamonds are a Girl's Best Friend"aholic, my memory begins to get a bit hazey. I'm not too sure HOW the transition occured, only that I began to grow into some form of reality with myself after I lost a good 40 lbs of my babyweight and realized I used to be chubby. I started wondering if there were other parts of my life that were less than ideal, that like my minimal weight problem, I'd just somehow been too blindly confident to notice.

I realized that, while I flirted and got the heads turning of every guy at the local mall (something my mother loved pointing out to me over and over again), I'd never been on a date in my life. While I was so busy drooling over Brad Pitt and some nameless member of N'Sync with my best friend, even as I got my crushes on boys who seemed emotionally available and 'different' than the normal assholes, I'd never imagine actually DOING anything with them or having a relationship that didn't revolve around me being perfect and them giving me things for it.

During my later teen years, my mind even tried to compensate for my lack of actual attraction to the 'right' gender by stretching to the unusual or unrealistic in ways I could be interested in them. If I could be as cold as possible, use them and take what I wanted without giving anything back, and they still wanted to be with me, then I could probably be satisfied with that relationship. I thought of these creepy things because I was supposed to be getting serious about boys and there was no such thing as 'lesbian' in my tiny portion of the globe. At least not anywhere I could find it. Hell, most of the girls in the area weren't my cup of tea, physically or personality-wise.

Then one day, along comes my innocent, older, mormon friend who just happened to look oddly hot dressing in drag (which I didn't question as I'd never seen it before). My 18th birthday rolls around and we 'Truth or Dare' ourselves right under the covers, only to leave the game behind as the mood caught us. WELCOME to being even MORE different for the rest of your life! I considered being bisexual, after catching the info on the internet, and I took notice of how oddly attractive that men's clothing was. Not only on my friend (who afterword decided she was straight). I wanted to try it. Maybe because she was into the older, gothic fashions of male attire.. but it gave me the feeling of wonder and a rush like I could be Robin Hood instead of Maid Marian.

Now, I've always been a queer little outcast, so it wasn't a tough thing for me to venture into at all. It helped that my mom was a bit eccentric and.. well, at least my brother wasn't redneck homophobic. I was blessed with slight support (along with a hearty push to give guys a decent try) and good old being ignored. Of course, I was still stuck on this little island, didn't have much possibility to try out my newfound possibilities, let alone meet girls that were half of the standard I was developing (I know, I know, everyone is beautiful.. I'm very open minded.. but you haven't seen the creatures I've seen). There was NO gay community.

Flash forward to the present. I've been in CA for exactly a year. Am planning things I've never taken into consideration, such as getting a decent job, a place to live, being independant.. you could say I'm a late bloomer. Probably mentally still 17, but whatever. The point I've spent all this time trying to lead upto is that, because of my ignorant past spent growing up to chase guys, it's been an especially hard road trying to figure out what my ID should be and what actions, decision and thoughts I have are based on my programming.. as opposed to those that are based on my true identity.

As far as popular labels go, I connect most strongly to 'soft butch'.. though those who know me well just call me the young prince. I am tall, hold myself fairly well, have pretty much a model's body and features (except for some bad skin problems I've been working to solve for a good many years) and I have a good many community-described masculine traits (I'm tough, but kind; assertive but respectful; I hold doors and give up my seat on the bus; I carry heavy things for people and get that cocky grin on my face when I do it because it makes me feel useful in a way I'd never known in my past princess days).

Yet, I am also normally soft-spoken, shy, overly (at times painfully) sweet, giggle, speak in a girly tone (not just pitch, but accent), and what the hell ever else that has been my habit for way too long whenever I am in an unknown situation or with a group of strangers. It's my self defense to make sure people think I'm sweet and innocent so they'll protect me and be nice to me and hold my hand. Whenever I catch myself doing it, it's very uncomfortable and I try to lower my voice and change my body language without much care for the confused faces of those around me. Why? Because it's my nature not to care what others think. I'm an artistic, punky dyke. I think wrestling is kickass fun. I like getting hurt in martial arts - it makes me laugh. I'm a physical, rowdy, sharp-edged, though ultimately kindhearted person who just followed peer pressure a bit too religiously in my developmental years... while miraculously not getting pregnant or drugged in the process. I'm straight edge.

I also love to write. So shut up about 'novels'. Maybe this will be published someday and I'll make lots and lots of money, so just shut the hell up. Forums are made for writing and the initiator of the thread isn't - big shocker - the only one everyone else is replying to. [/rant]

Back to MY subject.. and my reply about that quote that got lost about a mile up. So I'm gay (made 100% official to everyone in my life since that disasterous try at a straight relationship a few years back), I'm for-all-purposes a genderqueer/bigender soft butch decendant of royalty, and for my final number, I'm into butches. Who didn't see that coming?

I think femmes are nice and everything, but there's just no attraction there. I'd rather fight over who gets to hold the door for whom.. because I usually win. >) My girlfriend is a soft butch and SHE also likes other butch women, which has me in a bit of an insecure situation as I'm still a bit girly a lot of the time. So long as I'm funny enough to make HER giggle, too, it's all good. She'd also considered herself to be stone until she got into the bedroom with me, which of course is a deep and private transition that I wouldn't dream of trying to describe from my own point of view... though it is a confidence boot to my skills and apparently undeniably craveable personality anyway, because I'm egotistical like that. 

Actually, if 'fag' wasn't such an innately feminine label for the gayboys as I've come to know it, it could probably fit us. Well, except of course for the part where being a fag means you're attracted to guys. I think butch women who are attracted to the same deserve their own title. You don't see masculine gayboys going about calling themselves 'butch'.. or do you? Not that I've seen, anyway... but I digress. I really have no actual Point to make here in this reply. It's purpose is to serve as an insight into one butch4butch's life in the hopes of promoting better understanding.

Knowing how I tend to ramble, I've probably made a few people even more confused. That, of course, is also an accomplishment in itself. Either way, I'm pretty damn fulfilled right here. So.. yeah. Cheers.

- PK

We are so f****ing sexy.

BabyDykeBoiRoyalSuperhero POWER!

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Thanks for the butch plug Amazonsmurf...I'm a big fan of card carrying femmes who know what they like.

And Princeking, thanks for the cute pictures. I like the bois thing, it's cool.

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Beltane..

Well, I think there is a considerable amount of "who needs labels" ideology floating about in lesbian-land, and it instinctively makes me jump up and scream " I do, I do!" Everyone takes on labels as they go through life, from the simple and innocuously innocent (dog owner) to the more complex (identifying according to race, class, sexuality, gender etc.) It's a matter of what people accept as 'natural' categories. "lesbian' or 'women of colour' or religion-specific categories aren't challenged. But for some reason, butch/femme is, as if it isn't an acceptable way to identify. I sometimes get the impression from the community that all lesbians should be of the androgynous women-loving-women variety.

So, I absolutely feel the need to plug our fabulous butch gals, (who I think take a lot of flack from the community), and to try and explain what butch/femme means (to me at least.)

Ciao,

Sam.

**What makes those butch gals so sexxxy #107: the way the strut.

#4: the tie, #76: biceps, #2: the biggest and softest hearts you will ever know.****

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When I was a teenager I thought I was Bi... At the age of 21 after sleeping with a man I realized they were useless... I like woman and there is nothing that is going to change my mind about that. I have always been a tom boy.. when my girl cousins were playing with Barbie and My Little Pony... I was playing with GI Joe, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Power Rangers!

When I am watching a movie with women I would rather be the one that she cuddled up against, or the stereotypical stretching of the arm where I put my arm around her but why is it when I am in a similar situation with my best friends Mike and Andrew.. I can curl up with them and be completely "girly"... I just don't understand it.

I find myself confused more and more about myself recently and I am just looking for someone who can give me some insight..

My friends all know I am gay and that I shop in the men's section of whatever store we happen to be in but does that alone make me butch? I also cut my hair short, like a fade, or spikey... Is that what makes me butch? When I am dancing with a woman, I like it best when I am leading the dance... but I am attracted to Femme and Butch alike.. So basically I guess my main question is what defines Femme and Butch... I just don't know.. and its something I would like to learn...

Can someone please get back to me as i am really interested in learning the definitions to these titles? I don't even know what the hell to refer to myself besides Lesbian... Or as some assholes refer to me "Bull-Dyke" But I still just want to know why they say these names... Someone please help..

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Hi Irish  I don't know how you're feeling these days but it's fine to label yourself "just" lesbian. You can change your identiy anytime it suits you. Just because you're sometimes attracted to butches doesn't make /you/ less butch. As for bulldyke - there is (or was) a national Australian GLBT magazine. One issue had the national president of some organisation on the front. Her teeshirt said "It's /Ms/ Bulldyke to you". Brilliant eh? 

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I think all people not based on anything can really look how they feel they are happy with. Just because some of see it a different way,what right do we have to judge someone else. Would we want to judged?

My makeup is not right,

my nails are to long,

my hair had a day,

What gives us the right to judge??

I mean being lesbian don't we judged enough and how does it make us feel?

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People are always correcting me and Im sick of it. I have 6 tattoos, 4 of which are visible because they are on my neck. I am also large cheasted so many shirts look skanky on me because I refuse to wear a baggy shirt that makes me look heavier then I allready am. I am pretty short to so even if I get my pants hemmed they still drag on the ground or they are too short and show my ankles and socks. The point is, is that I cant change who I am. I am who I am and thats how I will always be. People will always look how they want to look, how they feel comfortable looking, no matter what anyone tells them. I might be alone in this but peoples's appearences dont bug me at all. I always see their personality first for some reason.

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This is all very lively.  While I agree that at least making an attempt to look decent is preferable it's not that important  all the time.  

There are many reasons why those women might have presented the way they did. Below are some examples.

1. Financial difficulties. I'm going through this one myself and I know I look well below my standards for myself but I do my best with what I have.  

2. Stress.  Any kind of stress makes you care a hell of a lot less about such trivial things as how you look at any point in time.

3. Depression etc. I also suffer from emotional/mental issues. When they flare up I honestly can't give a flying fuck about what others see when they look at me. 

Now if any of those are the case or even if they're not,  it's not nice to judge when you don't have any knowledge as to why the person behaves as they do 

That's my take on things.  We should be lifting each other up not tearing each other down.  

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maybe, you were personalizing their appearance because they were lesbians. if it had been a goofy looking straight couple, would you have cared? if the answer is "no", try reminding yourself that other people's lifestyles aren't about you and other lesbians aren't reflection upon you. there's somebody out there for everybody. just be happy for the fashion senseless - they found each other and seemed happy together.

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I'm responding to the original post here. I can relate to the thoughts (not the words), and sentiments expressed initially. I recently became open to the idea of dating butch women after dating femmes for 20 years. (Was married 10 of those years). Anyway, I went on two first dates this year with non femme women.. Not sure how they identified. I must say that I was shocked and disappointed both times because of the way the women were dressed. Let me say that there was nothing wrong with the ways that they were dressed, it just didn't seem appropriate for a date. Although the women seemed to like me, I kept thinking that they didn't care enough about me to put any effort into the date. I mean I really felt hurt and rejected. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I remember when people actually got dressed up for a date... Both men and women. I was so unhappy after the second date that I had to talk to someone about it. I actually discussed it with one of my dates. She said that she "was" dressed up... Awkward!!! She went on to describe her clothing and their labels. Apparently, she had put some thought into it. I did feel bad listening to her explanation. To me she looked unkept because her clothing seemed one or two sizes too large. She looked sloppy to me. Not attractive at all. After talking to a friend, I found out that a lot of people just don't dress up anymore. Today, life is all about being comfortable. Personally, I still like the idea of unwrapping a pretty package although what's inside is most important. I can only speak for myself but if I were a butch woman I'd still put forth the same effort to look nice for my date. I'm still hopeful that I will meet a dapper butch woman. 

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