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people who don't like the way other people look in public

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The No-No
I must say I am really disappointed with the propensity of "why do butches want to look like men" attitude on this board. Presumably we are all lesbians here, who have at least some degree of involvement in the gay community. Butch-femme has been around for a very long time, and it is not going anywhere. There is a considerable percentage of the lesbian community that identify in this manner.

In defense of our glorious butch gals
That being said - butches are not trying to be men, they are trying to carve out an existence that validates who they are, how they feel comfortable and who they are attracted to, ditto for the femmes.

My own misunderstandingsAs a card-carrying femme, I will be really honest with you, I have absolutely no idea why other lesbians identify as androgynous. To me this is the most un-sexy look I have ever seen. Same haircut, same taste in clothes, everything 100% 50/50. How freaking boring can you get! But, I would never try to postulate some glibe platitude about their reason for being or identifying the way they do. It takes all kinds, ladies.

SexxxxyI have no issue with the androgynous types out there, I just don't understand how any can find this sexy. As a femme, who is attracted to Butches, my answer to you all asking how any lesbian can find that sexy is this: its exciting, its knees like butter, passionate, over-the-top energy, that collides and explodes.


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Hey Amazon Smuf *waves*

that was a great post and well read! Kudos!
Fuck me badly once, shame on you....Fuck me badly twice, shame on me.


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Hey girl, thanks.

Cute hat :lol:


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TY, you like? :twisted:
Fuck me badly once, shame on you....Fuck me badly twice, shame on me.


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Oh yeah, so this is my first post to the forums. Woo. I've read just about everything here in the span of a couple of hours straight and it was quite an interesting read. I've had the urge to comment multiple times, though as suspected, the topic drove off into different directions near the recent times.. so I'll leave those be.

Something someone did say that caught my attention near the very beginning, which has a personal attention catching signifigance to me, is the question:


aren't two butchy chicks just 2 gay guys?

I'll tell ya, about 5% of my reaction was offense.. and the other 95% had to crack up. See, I'm sorta a baby dyke - 21 years old, sexually honest to myself for the most recent 3 years outta that. Before I realized I was gay... hell, before I knew what 'lesbian' meant (grew up in the countryside of a little island), I was damn girly! I flirted with everything for attention, gave great big beaming smiles and dressed like a slutty chirchgirl through the chubby portion of my teen years.

Before I was instructed by my generous peers on how to be boycrazy and flaunt my chub-boobies, I spent my childhood competing with my older brother on the trampoline, searching for the best bank of mud in the river to play in and running all over the triangle roofs of our multiple houses. I had a loud voice and a huge personality and something my grandfather called 'spunk'.

Now, once I derailed into the feminine world of teenage princess out there in the middle of nowhere, destined to be a "Diamonds are a Girl's Best Friend"aholic, my memory begins to get a bit hazey. I'm not too sure HOW the transition occured, only that I began to grow into some form of reality with myself after I lost a good 40 lbs of my babyweight and realized I used to be chubby. I started wondering if there were other parts of my life that were less than ideal, that like my minimal weight problem, I'd just somehow been too blindly confident to notice.

I realized that, while I flirted and got the heads turning of every guy at the local mall (something my mother loved pointing out to me over and over again), I'd never been on a date in my life. While I was so busy drooling over Brad Pitt and some nameless member of N'Sync with my best friend, even as I got my crushes on boys who seemed emotionally available and 'different' than the normal assholes, I'd never imagine actually DOING anything with them or having a relationship that didn't revolve around me being perfect and them giving me things for it.

During my later teen years, my mind even tried to compensate for my lack of actual attraction to the 'right' gender by stretching to the unusual or unrealistic in ways I could be interested in them. If I could be as cold as possible, use them and take what I wanted without giving anything back, and they still wanted to be with me, then I could probably be satisfied with that relationship. I thought of these creepy things because I was supposed to be getting serious about boys and there was no such thing as 'lesbian' in my tiny portion of the globe. At least not anywhere I could find it. Hell, most of the girls in the area weren't my cup of tea, physically or personality-wise.

Then one day, along comes my innocent, older, mormon friend who just happened to look oddly hot dressing in drag (which I didn't question as I'd never seen it before). My 18th birthday rolls around and we 'Truth or Dare' ourselves right under the covers, only to leave the game behind as the mood caught us. WELCOME to being even MORE different for the rest of your life! I considered being bisexual, after catching the info on the internet, and I took notice of how oddly attractive that men's clothing was. Not only on my friend (who afterword decided she was straight). I wanted to try it. Maybe because she was into the older, gothic fashions of male attire.. but it gave me the feeling of wonder and a rush like I could be Robin Hood instead of Maid Marian.

Now, I've always been a queer little outcast, so it wasn't a tough thing for me to venture into at all. It helped that my mom was a bit eccentric and.. well, at least my brother wasn't redneck homophobic. I was blessed with slight support (along with a hearty push to give guys a decent try) and good old being ignored. Of course, I was still stuck on this little island, didn't have much possibility to try out my newfound possibilities, let alone meet girls that were half of the standard I was developing (I know, I know, everyone is beautiful.. I'm very open minded.. but you haven't seen the creatures I've seen). There was NO gay community.

Flash forward to the present. I've been in CA for exactly a year. Am planning things I've never taken into consideration, such as getting a decent job, a place to live, being independant.. you could say I'm a late bloomer. Probably mentally still 17, but whatever. The point I've spent all this time trying to lead upto is that, because of my ignorant past spent growing up to chase guys, it's been an especially hard road trying to figure out what my ID should be and what actions, decision and thoughts I have are based on my programming.. as opposed to those that are based on my true identity.

As far as popular labels go, I connect most strongly to 'soft butch'.. though those who know me well just call me the young prince. I am tall, hold myself fairly well, have pretty much a model's body and features (except for some bad skin problems I've been working to solve for a good many years) and I have a good many community-described masculine traits (I'm tough, but kind; assertive but respectful; I hold doors and give up my seat on the bus; I carry heavy things for people and get that cocky grin on my face when I do it because it makes me feel useful in a way I'd never known in my past princess days).

Yet, I am also normally soft-spoken, shy, overly (at times painfully) sweet, giggle, speak in a girly tone (not just pitch, but accent), and what the hell ever else that has been my habit for way too long whenever I am in an unknown situation or with a group of strangers. It's my self defense to make sure people think I'm sweet and innocent so they'll protect me and be nice to me and hold my hand. Whenever I catch myself doing it, it's very uncomfortable and I try to lower my voice and change my body language without much care for the confused faces of those around me. Why? Because it's my nature not to care what others think. I'm an artistic, punky dyke. I think wrestling is kickass fun. I like getting hurt in martial arts - it makes me laugh. I'm a physical, rowdy, sharp-edged, though ultimately kindhearted person who just followed peer pressure a bit too religiously in my developmental years... while miraculously not getting pregnant or drugged in the process. I'm straight edge.

I also love to write. So shut up about 'novels'. Maybe this will be published someday and I'll make lots and lots of money, so just shut the hell up. Forums are made for writing and the initiator of the thread isn't - big shocker - the only one everyone else is replying to. [/rant]

Back to MY subject.. and my reply about that quote that got lost about a mile up. So I'm gay (made 100% official to everyone in my life since that disasterous try at a straight relationship a few years back), I'm for-all-purposes a genderqueer/bigender soft butch decendant of royalty, and for my final number, I'm into butches. Who didn't see that coming?

I think femmes are nice and everything, but there's just no attraction there. I'd rather fight over who gets to hold the door for whom.. because I usually win. >) My girlfriend is a soft butch and SHE also likes other butch women, which has me in a bit of an insecure situation as I'm still a bit girly a lot of the time. So long as I'm funny enough to make HER giggle, too, it's all good. She'd also considered herself to be stone until she got into the bedroom with me, which of course is a deep and private transition that I wouldn't dream of trying to describe from my own point of view... though it is a confidence boot to my skills and apparently undeniably craveable personality anyway, because I'm egotistical like that. ;)

Actually, if 'fag' wasn't such an innately feminine label for the gayboys as I've come to know it, it could probably fit us. Well, except of course for the part where being a fag means you're attracted to guys. I think butch women who are attracted to the same deserve their own title. You don't see masculine gayboys going about calling themselves 'butch'.. or do you? Not that I've seen, anyway... but I digress. I really have no actual Point to make here in this reply. It's purpose is to serve as an insight into one butch4butch's life in the hopes of promoting better understanding.

Knowing how I tend to ramble, I've probably made a few people even more confused. That, of course, is also an accomplishment in itself. Either way, I'm pretty damn fulfilled right here. So.. yeah. Cheers.

- PK

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We are so f****ing sexy.

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BabyDykeBoiRoyalSuperhero POWER!
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Thanks for the butch plug Amazonsmurf...I'm a big fan of card carrying femmes who know what they like.

And Princeking, thanks for the cute pictures. I like the bois thing, it's cool.


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Well, I think there is a considerable amount of "who needs labels" ideology floating about in lesbian-land, and it instinctively makes me jump up and scream " I do, I do!" Everyone takes on labels as they go through life, from the simple and innocuously innocent (dog owner) to the more complex (identifying according to race, class, sexuality, gender etc.) It's a matter of what people accept as 'natural' categories. "lesbian' or 'women of colour' or religion-specific categories aren't challenged. But for some reason, butch/femme is, as if it isn't an acceptable way to identify. I sometimes get the impression from the community that all lesbians should be of the androgynous women-loving-women variety.

So, I absolutely feel the need to plug our fabulous butch gals, (who I think take a lot of flack from the community), and to try and explain what butch/femme means (to me at least.)



**What makes those butch gals so sexxxy #107: the way the strut.
#4: the tie, #76: biceps, #2: the biggest and softest hearts you will ever know.****


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When I was a teenager I thought I was Bi... At the age of 21 after sleeping with a man I realized they were useless... I like woman and there is nothing that is going to change my mind about that. I have always been a tom boy.. when my girl cousins were playing with Barbie and My Little Pony... I was playing with GI Joe, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Power Rangers!

When I am watching a movie with women I would rather be the one that she cuddled up against, or the stereotypical stretching of the arm where I put my arm around her but why is it when I am in a similar situation with my best friends Mike and Andrew.. I can curl up with them and be completely "girly"... I just don't understand it.

I find myself confused more and more about myself recently and I am just looking for someone who can give me some insight..

My friends all know I am gay and that I shop in the men's section of whatever store we happen to be in but does that alone make me butch? I also cut my hair short, like a fade, or spikey... Is that what makes me butch? When I am dancing with a woman, I like it best when I am leading the dance... but I am attracted to Femme and Butch alike.. So basically I guess my main question is what defines Femme and Butch... I just don't know.. and its something I would like to learn...

Can someone please get back to me as i am really interested in learning the definitions to these titles? I don't even know what the hell to refer to myself besides Lesbian... Or as some assholes refer to me "Bull-Dyke" But I still just want to know why they say these names... Someone please help.. PM, E-mail or Reply to this post.



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Hi Irish :) I know my post is quite sometime after yours but I thought I would reply anyways. I don't know how you're feeling these days but it's fine to label yourself "just" lesbian. You can change your identiy anytime it suits you. Just because you're sometimes attracted to butches doesn't make /you/ less butch. As for bulldyke - there is (or was) a national Australian GLBT magazine. One issue had the national president of some organisation on the front. Her teeshirt said "It's /Ms/ Bulldyke to you". Brilliant eh? :lol: :lol:
the only abnormality there is is the incapacity to love ~ Anais Nin


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I think all people not based on anything can really look how they feel they are happy with. Just because some of see it a different way,what right do we have to judge someone else. Would we want to judged?
My makeup is not right,

my nails are to long,

my hair had a day,

What gives us the right to judge??
I mean being lesbian don't we judged enough and how does it make us feel?

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