Fammikins

Religion.

38 posts in this topic

I know, this is just another topic some couples can't talk about, right? Sadly it shouldn't be and that was the case with my first relationship just last year. Yes, it took me a looong time to get interested in dating. I did love it and I thought I loved the lady, however I was proved wrong.

Please. If you're religious, don't let this thread offend you. That isn't my intention here. I respect those with religion. However I've basically turned down anyone who is religious because I believe it'll mean trouble for the relationship since I'm Agnostic.

This was in senior year of high school and we were at her house a lot. I remember she introduced me to her parents only as a friend, which I didn't mind. She didn't want her family knowing just yet and I was comfortable waiting.

Now keep in mind the most we ever did was kiss and cuddle. I'm old fashioned that way, despite the fact that she, the "good religious gal", wanted more. She knew I wasn't comfortable with that and let me be. However even after we would have our snuggly moments or make out, she'd express guilt which baffled me. If she was so engrossed with her religion why was she even bothering me?

"I'm curious to know what it's like being with a girl, I just wanted to see what the fuss was about, you know?"

I don't think she realized it but that answer stung. Just because I'm a lesbian doesn't mean I'm some experimental free spirit. [i can be, but certainly not in the sense that I'm up for testing by others in their sexuality! I'm too romantic for that and am only interested in lesbians, not bisexuals. She knew that.] I broke up with her a week later.

It was a civil break up and we've stayed in touch.

This isn't my first or only negative run in with religion. There have been plenty others. Bibles thrown at me, accusations, etc. The example I used here is the only relationship related one I have though.

I'm sure time will help ease me into dating those with religion again. However I'm reluctant to make that transition. Anyone else have thoughts/experiences on dating those with/out religion?

Share this post


Link to post

I have had many bad experiences with organized religion, not the least of which is my eternally fundamentalist Christian family and their views on homosexuality. Also, I have learned, very painfully, time and time again that with people of faith, their beliefs will always come before you. No exceptions, unless they are of the variety who are questioning anyway. I cannot see myself dating anyone deeply religious. That might be prejudice, but it is truth. In fact, I had a knock down, drag out fight with a now former friend just now on the fan site of my favorite singer over a blog I wrote negating the truth of Christianity, and asking people not to try to convert me. She got all self righteous and offended, we ended the friendship with her calling me a fraud and a liar and intolerant. Sorry, no room for that in my friendships, much less a relationship. That isn't being prejudiced, it is just knowing that, from experience, it just won't work. I have plenty of friends of faith who agree to disagree, but it seriously seems to be something that eventually drives a wedge, so why waste time,when both people are strong enough in their convictions that you know in your heart of hearts it just won't work?

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post

Interesting.. well, I'm a muslim.

Freaked out much yet? lol! yeah we get that a lot. Personally, I think that people that are intolerant of others' ideas or believes aren't true to their believes/religions to begin with, because all religions in this world -regardless of which or where- advocate acceptance of others' and their believes, without pushing yours down their throats, etc. Heck, I won't even phase about a satanic, as long as they're not the type that go kill innocent creatures to offer as sacrifices to the devil or something like that. I don't mind a different mindset just not a psychotic one lol! As grown ups I think civilized discussions where the two parties express their opinions and their side of view to the other without expecting anything more than mere understanding would be a great and wonderful thing, I always aim at that, but sadly more often than not it just does not work. It's only when people can open their minds to the world will they finally be able to communicate freely with one another.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post

Religion and relationships: OMG!

I know with this topic it is best for me to run and hide, but oh…..here I go again! I like to begin with saying, in a traditional sense, I’m not religious in that I do not directly associate with socially established and structured religious groups, but in the sense and to the degree I choose to be spiritual, I am a religious woman. So, here is where the crux begins with me. I have a great propensity to connect with the goodness in people, generalize various moral values, and then relate these values to greater ethical social goods; well, so far as I can allow myself. But many organized religions teach moral values that are universal and exclusive. Such a moral education can result in a narrow perspective. (Of course, how did they happen to come across universal knowledge and am I a reprobate for demanding that religious institutions espouse and respect certain standards of human value that are germane to the culture we are currently living in? Can you guess my first question?...... Just what the hell is wrong with being LGBTQ?)

Oh yes, where was I…something like we’re taking about religion and relationships. Okay, well it doesn’t take much to understand that with the American culture, we have our wonderful patriarchal system; you’ve hear of it: male, white, rich, and politically and socially connected. And many of the established religious institution work to preserve the status quo from generation to generation, and at the same time, they have to function as pseudo-change agents. Time-out! Where am I at? Ugggg. Oh, yes! With how many well established religious groups is being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, or queer (or a combination, yea, that works with me) considered a part of the status quo? Somewhere in someone’s dreams!

So, I am sure there are pockets of support within organized religion for GLBTQ, but on the whole, it will not be there. But, I have found many individuals in traditional religious institutions who sympathize with the rights of individuals to live lives in a manner that is respectful and dignifying of who they are and what they are. I think it is best to engender their support OUTSIDE of any socialized religious framework.

Finally, getting to my deal-breaker, I have no interest, EVER, in personally sharing or discussing my sexuality, orientation, gender identity, gender expression, or overall queerness with an individual who defines hir corresponding self primarily through the precepts of religious institutions or some other silly perspective. Why; hell, THE PERSON IS IN DENIAL. Closing the eyes is usually an effective way to avoid looking at something; it worked with me last time I tried it. She may be a buddy or a fling, but we will never have any prospects to or with a substantive personal relationship. I had to learn with an abundance of mistakes. Yea, I’m good at making ‘em.

Jackie. 

Share this post


Link to post

I am an atheist. I consider myself to have strong ethics about what I consider to be right and wrong in life. I just don't need/want organized religion to tell me how I should live my life in the hope of ending in a place I do not believe in after I die. Last year, I dated a woman who goes to church and claims to aspire to live in a "state of grace" (her own words). She was a cheater and a liar, and just couldn't handle the fact that I did not believe in God. She dumped me for another Christian woman who also happened to be the partner of 18 years of another woman whom she had an affair with last summer and is in prison for drug use. I am not sure how I ended up getting sucked up into such a messed up person's life but I did and I ended up with a broken heart while she seems to be enjoying a relationship... So, anyone who needs to go to church for her Jesus fill on a weekly basis is now immediately ruled out as a potential date... It sounds extreme but I have been burned and I won't let it happen again...

Share this post


Link to post

I'm an atheist. I have been since I was a kid. I get really irritated when someone tries to convince me that what I believe is crap, which is why I avoid going on a douchey atheist rant against someone who happens to believe in a higher power. It's none of my business what another person believes. Unless they shove it in my face or it insinuates itself into my personal life, I don't care. Still, I find dating religious people...difficult. Usually because the girl will invite me to her church, or synagogue as once was the case, and I'll feel extremely uncomfortable as I sit in that pew listening to a religious figure go on about something which goes against everything I believe. And if we were to ever have kids, then I wouldn't know how to handle the religious thing. In my opinion, my kids should make up their own minds and not have someone else tell them what they should think, but I have no idea if the other person in the relationship would agree with me. That would bother me quite a bit. So, though I hate discriminating against anyone, I think it would make more sense for me to date someone who was an atheist or agnostic.

Share this post


Link to post

I feel the same way about religion and I am also Agnostic, after being raised Catholic. I feel like I could not be in a relationship with someone who is devoted to any religion. I have friends who are very religious, and they will not stop talking about God in everything. Every aspect of their life is controlled by God, and sometimes they use God as an excuse for them being the way they are instead of facing themselves. I don't have a problem with organized religions because i believe they are very beneficial to some, but having God in every conversation is kind of annoying. Especially when arguments spring up. Having religion basically thrown in my face everyday gets me irritated because sometimes they would condemn you to some dreadful end because you do not have the same "faith" or whatever that they have. I do believe to each his/her own, and that is the same reason why I believe everyone should keep their religious views or their need to convert others to themselves.

Share this post


Link to post

Religion can be a big deal in relationships for both parties--the one with it or the one without it. I can understand how people without can feel oppressed or judged by the person with, but I can also offer some insight into the mind of the one with religion. While I don't consider myself to be one of those stereotypical close minded bigots, (hello I'm here, aren't I?) I do consider myself to have a strong faith. With me, the reason I tend to shy away from forming serious romantic relationships with people with different religious philosophies, or without them, is because according to my religion I'm saved. I'm forgiven. I'm blessed. If I love someone, I want them to have the very best, and I believe that's the faith I've found. I want them to feel that peace, that love, that closeness to the Creator. I want to know that when we both die, we will be together. Granted, I know a lot of people don't believe in the afterlife, or that religion has any benefits whatsoever to offer, but to someone who does believe in those things it makes sense. Obviously there is never a good excuse to cram your beliefs down someones throat...But when you honestly believe someone's dying of thirst, and you honestly believe you have a cup of cold water in your hands, it hurts not to at least try to give them some.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post

It's alright, I can relate. I, too, am agnostic, and living in a very Catholic country can really... bring you down. Personally, I don't mind my partner having a religion. What I do mind, however, is when they shove it down my throat and force me into it. Religion is just something that I don't see myself believing in anymore. I'm so tired of everything in school, at home, and everywhere else, even in politics (though in the constitution it says that the church and state are separated -- yeah, right!) is always about religion! I'm so tired of it. What's worse are those stares that go "Ohh that girl is agnostic she doesn't have faith wow she's weird". Ugh, they're the worst!

Share this post


Link to post

Just wait until someone tells their mate that they are a satanist. To be a fly on that wall would be most entertaining. As with atheists, agnostics, and pagans of every stripe, we all know what something is until we are asked about it, then the misconceptions fly like the wind.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post

I consider myself to be very spiritual... Okay ... Let me be totally honest here. I attend church typically three times a week. I pray and meditate several times a day. I take spiritual classes. You get the picture. But I also beleive that every path leads to God/Spirit no matter what the individual believes or does not beleive in. We're all connected to spirit and to one another. I would like a partner who is also working on her spiritual evolution no matter what religion she practices. However, I would be open to dating an agnostic or atheist because I can convert anybody! ( Kidding). I think that as long as a woman respects my practice, I will certainly respect the path that she is taking. 

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post

I am an atheist and outspoken about it. I've been told I'm going to hell more times than I can count. I think I get more flack for this than for being queer, or perhaps it's seen as all part of the same godless package, lol. I've noticed, though, that when often (not always) when I debate a Xtian and he/she/it gets frustrated, the discussion ends with me saying something like "Look, we obviously don't speak the same the same language, so let's just end this." and them saying "You're going to burn in hell forever!" And this is a scenario I've seen repeated on forums at some the atheist sites I visit. Now, who seems more reasonable? I used to think I would consider dating a Xtian. But not anymore. I am getting to the point where I think religion is pernicious. Hitchins was right!

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post

I single out Xtians in particular b/c I have Muslim, Jewish, and Hindu friends. Xtians are the ONLY people I know who ever regularly take the time to inform me I'm destined to spend eternity roasting in the nether regions under satan.

Share this post


Link to post

I've always been an atheist. The whole myth of some dude walking on water, a whale puking up a person, a "virgin" birth and other crazy wack-a-doodle stories has always struck me as being totally weird. Bible thumpers love to pick and choose stuff out of the bible, flail their arms and say "See! It's in the bible! That means it's true!"  Not so fast. How about Jeremiah 9:4-6 which says "Don't trust anyone. Not even your neighbors, family, or friends. Those who believe differently than you are all liars and evil doers." Or how about Exodus 2:11-12 "Moses murders an Egyptian after making sure that no one is looking" (what happened to thou shall not kill?). Or what about Leviticus 24:16 "Anyone who blasphemes or curses shall be stoned to death by the entire community." (if this is true, I should have been dead a long time ago). Deuteronomy 17:2-7 "Kill everyone who has religious beliefs that are different from your own." Or Deuteronomy 19:18-19 "False witnesses are to be executed" (I see half of Congress going bye bye) Deuteronomy 22:13-21 "If a man marries, then decides that he hates his wife, he can claim she wasn't a virgin when they were married. If her father can't produce the "tokens of her virginity" (bloody sheets), then the woman is to be stoned to death at her father's doorstep." But don't forget that god is love! Really?! There's a great website call Skeptics Annotated Bible. That's where I got the bible passages from. This website also covers the Koran and the Book of Mormon. I love to ask bible thumpers "If god is all knowing, why didn't it prevent Hitler from being born? Why didn't god tear down the walls of the concentration camps and free all of the prisoners? Why doesn't god save all of the fleeing migrants from drowning at sea? Why doesn't god feed all of the starving people in the world?" Because religion is BS. 

Share this post


Link to post

Dot2525 said:

"If god is all knowing, why didn't it prevent Hitler from being born? Why didn't god tear down the walls of the concentration camps and free all of the prisoners? Why doesn't god save all of the fleeing migrants from drowning at sea? Why doesn't god feed all of the starving people in the world?" Because religion is BS. 

Well, first it's worth pointing out that God isn't religion. But regarding the questions, why would you assume that God would do any of those things?

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post

Because we've been told from day one that "god is love. god loves you. god cares about you." Well, if the great sky spook really gives a crap, WHY NOT save a baby from drowning in the ocean? WHY NOT drop food from the skies and feed starving people? The great sky spook supposedly had done it before. Remember the myth about manna from heaven? I guess that must have been a one time television offer........

Share this post


Link to post

So, if God loved us, He'd solve all of our problems for us? He's supposed to be the ultimate helicopter mom? The Creator of everything, Who possesses perfect wisdom is supposed to have brought conscious beings into existence only to control their every move, force them to live like puppets, so they wouldn't make any mistakes or ever feel a moment's pain, never allow them to learn or develop or make choices. What would be the point of that? And by that logic no mother loves her children. After all, she knows that by bringing them into the world, she's condemning them to struggle, suffer, and die.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post

People have been praying to their god or gods for almost as long as humans have been crawling on this planet. Pray to god(s) for a good harvest, lots of babies, victory in battle, no disease, death to people they don't like, safe trips to another city or state, winning a football game, success in business etc. Bad things happen "Must have been god's will." A family member is murdered "god must be testing me!" Nah, it's just bad luck. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Share this post


Link to post

That's not an argument against the existence of God. People sometimes attributing things incorrectly to God is merely an argument for human fallibility. People have long believed that black cats cause calamity - understanding that black cats are not responsible for unfortunate events is not an argument against the existence of black cats.

Share this post


Link to post

Specifically, it's called a False Cause Fallacy. It's the same one you're committing.

Share this post


Link to post

Well, tell you what Dani28. You will NEVER convince me that god exists and I will never convince you that god doesn't exist. If you want to believe that there's an invisible sky spook floating around, go for it. The ancient Greeks believed that Zeus and the other gods lived on Mount Olympus. Whenever Zeus got pissed off, he'd throw a thunderbolt at humans. That idea is as silly as a god surrounded by angels floating above the Earth in "Heaven" or "damned" souls burning in "Hell". 

Share this post


Link to post

None of what you're describing is God. And I know you won't figure it out; I was just pointing out that you're committing the same fallacies as those on the board who believe in God whom you belittled without any provocation. You're like a blind person calling sighted people stupid for believing in the visible spectrum of light. You have every right to reject things that you aren't able to understand; but when you do so in such a vicious way, you invite argument. I could call you simple-minded. You don't even understand the definition of God, let alone why the existence of God is a logical imperative; that without God as a catalyst that required no catalyst, all laws of physics had to break themselves at their own inception, as Aristotle already successfully refuted Infinite Regress thousands of years ago. For that matter, the argument you're making is known as the Euthyphro Problem, and was also successfully refuted by Plato and a number of Roman philosophers, as well. I could point out how silly it is to reject the existence of one necessity of physics but I suspect cleave to other laws of physics and mathematics, which have no perceptible physical existence and can be known only by their effects. But I won't. That would be base and crude. So, I'm just pointing out that the greatest minds that ever lived believed in God and none of them for the reasons you're talking about. Some of them were even religious. Oh, and true skeptics don't specifically doubt the existence of some things; they don't believe in anything because the ability of humans to perceive the world as it is leaves so many variables undetected that skeptics argue that nobody can know anything. Skeptics don't believe in God. They also don't believe in laws of thermodynamics or the movement of plate tectonics or the existence of their own underpants. F.Y.I.  

Share this post


Link to post

LAWS of physics don't break. That's the point.
You do realize that you can't prove that God is real, right? Just people people had a thought doesn't mean that it is a law of physics; I believe that there is no heaven or hell, so by your logic I could say that you are breaking the laws of physics by believing in them. I could also point out that the world has been looked through, and that hell has not been found, that the skies have been searched and no heaven lies there.

 

Dani28 said:

So, I'm just pointing out that the greatest minds that ever lived believed in God

Stephan Hawking doesn't, are you saying that he isn't smart? Albert Einstein called himself agnostic, and he was one of the smartest people we've had.

"Some people who believed in god were religious"
Well no duh. Of course they'd believe in god if they believed in god.

 

 

Dani28 said:

Oh, and true skeptics don't specifically doubt the existence of some things; they don't believe in anything because the ability of humans to perceive the world as it is leaves so many variables undetected that skeptics argue that nobody can know anything. Skeptics don't believe in God. They also don't believe in laws of thermodynamics or the movement of plate tectonics or the existence of their own underpants. F.Y.I.  

Not actually true, maybe you should actually research things before saying them, since many people who don't believe in a god are more science-focused people instead. You know, the same sort of people who found out about plate tectonics and whatnot. What you're talking about are more akin to people thinking that we are in the Matrix, which would actually require someone or something to have made everything in the beginning and that nothing can be 'really' real.
Yes, basically the people that you just insulted are the same sort who are most akin to believe in a force greater than themselves. Take of what what you will.

Share this post


Link to post

Yes, that was my point (regarding laws of physics); and it's why the creation of the world ultimately needed a First Cause that required no catalyst. Otherwise, the only alternative to Infinite Regress is for some Big Bang style event, which would require that all laws of physics be broken at the moment of their inception, at the inception of the world. Energy would have to have been created from nothing, without any catalyst. That's a logical impossibility. Hence, my saying so.
I never claimed there was a hell or that the fact that something can be thought of constitutes it's existence. Those were Straw Man Fallacies. Please, address things that I actually said; because otherwise the discussion becomes polluted with red herrings.
As a matter of fact, I don't think Hawking is particularly bright. He's very good at memorizing information; but he's a poor critical thinker. Einstein was a genius, who sometimes believed in God and other times doubted God's existence; but he also rejected the theory that the universe was expanding just because it freaked him out (human fallibility), even though all of his own research pointed toward that very fact.
And actually the bit about skeptics is true. Skepticism is an ancient school of philosophical thought (I read a lot of Roman philosophy, as it was my major) and the term skepticism is widely misused. In casual conversation about whether a sports team has a chance at winning, it's alright to make liberal use of that term; but when talking about metaphysics, the philosophical use is the only proper use.
And I love Chalmers. I could talk Matrix Philosophy all day.

Share this post


Link to post

It's almost 2 am here, so I have to go to bed; but if you ever want to talk Matrix As Metaphysics, hit me up. I almost never run into anyone who's read that paper.

Share this post


Link to post

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now